The Economist, I'm curious about your skepticism about algorithmic financial advice. At the very broad level, all advice is algorithmic: you know some things about a person, you apply a filter of knowledge, you output advice. Obviously, as a psychologist, I think the "things about a person" that you know are complicated, but I don't think that means you can't offer good advice with a more limited set of information.
And in particular, at least personally, I tend to believe that for many people, even simple advice is better than no advice. There are a startling number of people working their way through the world with little to no understanding of their basic finances. If we can reach those people and help them improve, I think that makes it worth it.
We agree, PN. We spend a lot of time trying to get banks to reconsider their fees and the way they generate profits - it drives us a little nut. We'll stay free and keep working on the issue, and we'll be down in DC next week for Financial Literacy Day, lobbying for just this kind of change!
Laura, I'm sorry to hear that we don't have your bank; we wish we had them all, but unfortunately, it is dependent on your bank more than us. If you'd like, you can shoot us an e-mail over at support@justthrive.com, let us know the bank, and we will go out and contact them to try to integrate them with Thrive. We're adding new banks all the day and we even have a little letter you can send to your bank, encouraging them to add Thrive support!
When using a bank card both systems are probably just a vulnerable and either way you can only be liable for up to 50$ in purchases if your card is stolen and you report in a timely fashion (this means frequently checking your balances online, etc.) However, when you use credit usually you must give your card to the cashier, not only that most people will also show their ID to a cashier as well. If you think that all cashiers are honest and that they cant remember your credit card number..your wrong. Both systems are just as vulnerable to electronic theft; however, only credit requires requires this added vulnerability. I almost always use a major credit card that offers zero liability so there is no choice between debit and credit, but when I do use a bank card its debit for me..not only is it quicker but it usually posts to my account faster for easier balance tracking.
My son has a newer tv, I bought for him in 2007. He is just starting out on his own and cannot afford to pay for cable. He got his coupons and got the RCA DT800 (??) hooked it up, and gets absolutely no channels. Is it the converter box that just doesn't pick up the signals? Is it because his tv is newer and not an old analog one with rabbit ears? Should he also purchase rabbit ears? Or just get a different box? He got no channels before, and still gets none. I thought with the converter box he would be able to get channels without having to pay for cable. Help!
this is very close to mint, but tries to offer advice. If it can't get all the info or computes anything wrong then its completely worthless. My Savings account with Dollar Savings Direct wasn't able to connect (mint is having this problem too). But instead of asking me what the amount might be or letting me put in a manual amount through an unrecognized bank, or even better computing it from the transfers. It just says 0$ saved. Also I go through and make adjustments to the categories and it doesn't update the dashboard. Also the spending goals (ways to cut spending) have no basis in reality other than amount. Did you spend 105? try spending 95$ Also everything is partitioned out on the month. If you go shopping on the first and 30th of the month your advice will be way off that month. So in all my financial health ranks at a 4.5 because I have can't have savings and it calculated my bills as purchases.
We had 240 square feet of raised, terraced beds built for us this year. We'll never get the cost back in dollars but the satisfaction we will have eating our veg straight from the garden will far surpass any monetary outlay.
I've been using Mint.com for months now and I highly recommend it. From the looks of it, the two sites are very similar, whereas this one gives you advice. I will say that while I appreciate the efforts, I think it's helpful for us all to have some skepticism about the kind of financial advice you get from an algorithm.
It seems that a number of these tools are popping up these days, rudder.com being another. One advantage to the mint world for me is that it has an awesome iPhone app that I use on the daily.
If you're going to invest the time and money in any size gardening, invest in a canner or take the time to freeze your produce! Most vegetables freeze really well, but we find our tomatoes do best with hot-water canning.
In fact, we just had fresh tomato soup last night. Yum... We always grow more than we can eat and share, just to ensure organic veggies year-round.
One of the not so great things about our house is the very small backyard. Like Carrie our backyard is shady and populated by critters. I would love to have a big garden like my grandmother (what I mean by this is a 10 x 5 foot plot). Our biggest bang for the buck is using 2 small raised beds and a couple pots for raising tomatoes, peppers, and herbs. Seriously if I had more room I'd grow more herbs because we use them ALOT and they are expensive in the store.
I've always wondered about what the difference is, and this is one of the better explanations I've seen. Thanks for posting this. I think this makes me feel that using 'credit' is the better way to go. Good thing I've been doing so!
Ditto for square foot gardening
Ditto for homemade compost
Ditto for tomatoes AHHHH tomatoes still warm from the sun
We've found marigolds to be a great animal repellant as we get them all, rabbit, squirrel, possum, skunk. We also use grey water for our garden from the bathtub, sticking it in gallon milk jugs, putting them under the back porch and using as needed. Rain barrels are a bit problematic here as we have mosquitoes. But someone may well have figured how to solve that one. You may want to check out if your state has any gardening programs. We were given our composters at clinics held locally. The information was wonderful as well. We have two raised beds about 4 by 8, and zero in on what we like best. Tomatoes (we go through alot of sauce), green beans (easy to freeze), some carrots and lettuce and BASIL. We do alot of pesto and basil freezes well. Last year we were given a rhubarb plant from a friend and some seed from a freecycler. So our repetoire will expand this year. Have fun.
This does seem very similar to Mint, although Mint doesn't really give you "advice," it simply keeps track of your accounts and allows you to set a budget and it let's you know when you go over your budget.
I just read this article and signed up about a half hour ago. Thrive tallied all my debt and gave some great recommendations. Also pointed out that I could survive for 0 days without a job :\
Can anyone tell me whether this site is better than MINT? I had been thinking of signing up for MINT but procrastinating.
Something else to possibly do to increase your returns and realize how much you're saving would be to open a savings account or some other interest bearing account and put the money you save from your bulk buying into that account and see how much you have after a year. Interest rates aren't the best right now but it would give you a great illustration of how much you saved and you would also be gaining that much extra from the interest you earn.
I agree with square foot gardening. We just started this year. And we started small - just two 3x3 plots, and a couple of extra pots. I am going to see how it goes, and add on maybe next year. We are CSA members, so I can't go whole hog.
I figure that due to my year-round growing season (So Cal) and relatively fenced-in yard, I could probably provide all of the veggies for my 3-person family in my less than 1/10 acre plot. But I probably won't.
If I were pregnant, I wouldn't be doing it either. I've been meaning to start a garden for years (my seeds are two years old), and it wasn't until this year (when my son is three and old enough to know not to pick the green tomatoes) that we actually started.
I was laid off my job at the end of 2008 because the business closed. For the first time in 35 years I am collecting unemployment and the job market is horrendous out there.
So I am taking this time to not only look for a job that is an even better fit, but when I get tired of beating the pavement, I take time to do creative things, and I may even have a new business for myself.
Getting the new routine down is the hardest part. Just turning off the TV is important. Staying optimistic gets difficult sometimes and that is when I get out and try a new avenue. This is a great opportunity to do some deeper self examination too. Most importantly, just knowing that this is a temporary situation gets me through.
Thanks for the heads up on the personal finance tool! Boy, it's great to see companies helping people out with their financial education for a change, instead of trying to rip money out of their pockets!
I agree that many gardeners spend more than they will ever get out, and I think it's important to decide if you are gardening as a hobby or of you want to see a return. Permaculture offers small-scale solutions that are conscious of inputs vs. outputs. Today most recommended growing techniques require a lot of fertilizer. And tilling takes a lot of energy. These things will be getting way more expensive, along with commercially grown food. Permaculture gardens are no-till, use more perennials than annuals, and focus on building the soil and controlling pests naturally. The goal is to maximize output versus inputs, which is way different than the typical approach today. While individual plants may yield less (because they are spaced apart, grown without chemical fertilizers, and in the shade of other diverse plants growing nearby) the whole system can yield more.
Much like other online resources that purpote to help you manage your money, you need to do your banking with major companies to derive much benefit from this. Right off the bat, my little community bank is not an option, so I am not sure how much use I can get from this. I will continue to fiddle, but without my checking or savings accounts, what can I do?
If I were going to have a baby in the middle of June, I wouldn't put a lot of time or effort into a garden this year either. :-)
The ROI for gardening depends on a lot of things, including your base of comparison. If you're using it to replace organic produce from Whole Foods, it's easy to come out on top. If you're comparing it to iceberg lettuce and canned tomatoes, it's more of a toss-up.
If you're really hoping to save money on the gardening game, it's important to think in terms of low-fuss, high-yield crops: tomatoes, lettuce, bush beans, and so on. And keep your paraphernalia minimal.
Ditto the comments about Square Foot Gardening. It's a great way to make the most of limited space, with much lower cost and effort than traditional methods.
Don't forget about seed saving; in the age of big corporate agriculture, patents on plants, and genetic modification, it's important to maintain heirloom seed lines. Besides, it's easy to save seeds at the end of the season and dramatically reduce next year's costs; several friends are planning to pool our seeds to start a small local seed bank. Check out Seed Savers Exchange for information and access to seeds.
Finally, for some DIY inspiration, check out The Cheap Vegetable Gardener for homebuilt versions of self-watering containers, upside-down tomato growing, grow lights, hydroponics, and more.
* gardening costs go down over time, while groceries keep going up - and some predict hyper-inflation which will put a tomato out of the reach of the middle class;
* organics are pricier in the store - you get better quality from your garden;
* gardening increases self-reliance which is a hedge against catastrophic events, in case, for example, Obama fails to charm the nukes off of Iran and N Korea, N51 pandemic, oil prices sky-rocket, a commercial real estate crisis, etc. I'm making my mistakes now, so I will have a reliable garden if or when something happens;
* gardening is a healthy, natural lifestyle choice;
* gardening cuts down on your entertainment bill - gardening is entertainment!
Do yourself a huge favor and experience nurturing a food-giving plant.
The Economist, I'm curious about your skepticism about algorithmic financial advice. At the very broad level, all advice is algorithmic: you know some things about a person, you apply a filter of knowledge, you output advice. Obviously, as a psychologist, I think the "things about a person" that you know are complicated, but I don't think that means you can't offer good advice with a more limited set of information.
And in particular, at least personally, I tend to believe that for many people, even simple advice is better than no advice. There are a startling number of people working their way through the world with little to no understanding of their basic finances. If we can reach those people and help them improve, I think that makes it worth it.
We agree, PN. We spend a lot of time trying to get banks to reconsider their fees and the way they generate profits - it drives us a little nut. We'll stay free and keep working on the issue, and we'll be down in DC next week for Financial Literacy Day, lobbying for just this kind of change!
Laura, I'm sorry to hear that we don't have your bank; we wish we had them all, but unfortunately, it is dependent on your bank more than us. If you'd like, you can shoot us an e-mail over at support@justthrive.com, let us know the bank, and we will go out and contact them to try to integrate them with Thrive. We're adding new banks all the day and we even have a little letter you can send to your bank, encouraging them to add Thrive support!
When using a bank card both systems are probably just a vulnerable and either way you can only be liable for up to 50$ in purchases if your card is stolen and you report in a timely fashion (this means frequently checking your balances online, etc.) However, when you use credit usually you must give your card to the cashier, not only that most people will also show their ID to a cashier as well. If you think that all cashiers are honest and that they cant remember your credit card number..your wrong. Both systems are just as vulnerable to electronic theft; however, only credit requires requires this added vulnerability. I almost always use a major credit card that offers zero liability so there is no choice between debit and credit, but when I do use a bank card its debit for me..not only is it quicker but it usually posts to my account faster for easier balance tracking.
My son has a newer tv, I bought for him in 2007. He is just starting out on his own and cannot afford to pay for cable. He got his coupons and got the RCA DT800 (??) hooked it up, and gets absolutely no channels. Is it the converter box that just doesn't pick up the signals? Is it because his tv is newer and not an old analog one with rabbit ears? Should he also purchase rabbit ears? Or just get a different box? He got no channels before, and still gets none. I thought with the converter box he would be able to get channels without having to pay for cable. Help!
this is very close to mint, but tries to offer advice. If it can't get all the info or computes anything wrong then its completely worthless. My Savings account with Dollar Savings Direct wasn't able to connect (mint is having this problem too). But instead of asking me what the amount might be or letting me put in a manual amount through an unrecognized bank, or even better computing it from the transfers. It just says 0$ saved. Also I go through and make adjustments to the categories and it doesn't update the dashboard. Also the spending goals (ways to cut spending) have no basis in reality other than amount. Did you spend 105? try spending 95$ Also everything is partitioned out on the month. If you go shopping on the first and 30th of the month your advice will be way off that month. So in all my financial health ranks at a 4.5 because I have can't have savings and it calculated my bills as purchases.
feeds the soul as well.
We had 240 square feet of raised, terraced beds built for us this year. We'll never get the cost back in dollars but the satisfaction we will have eating our veg straight from the garden will far surpass any monetary outlay.
I've been using Mint.com for months now and I highly recommend it. From the looks of it, the two sites are very similar, whereas this one gives you advice. I will say that while I appreciate the efforts, I think it's helpful for us all to have some skepticism about the kind of financial advice you get from an algorithm.
It seems that a number of these tools are popping up these days, rudder.com being another. One advantage to the mint world for me is that it has an awesome iPhone app that I use on the daily.
Good stuff though. Thanks for the ad-icle.
If you're going to invest the time and money in any size gardening, invest in a canner or take the time to freeze your produce! Most vegetables freeze really well, but we find our tomatoes do best with hot-water canning.
In fact, we just had fresh tomato soup last night. Yum... We always grow more than we can eat and share, just to ensure organic veggies year-round.
One of the not so great things about our house is the very small backyard. Like Carrie our backyard is shady and populated by critters. I would love to have a big garden like my grandmother (what I mean by this is a 10 x 5 foot plot). Our biggest bang for the buck is using 2 small raised beds and a couple pots for raising tomatoes, peppers, and herbs. Seriously if I had more room I'd grow more herbs because we use them ALOT and they are expensive in the store.
I've always wondered about what the difference is, and this is one of the better explanations I've seen. Thanks for posting this. I think this makes me feel that using 'credit' is the better way to go. Good thing I've been doing so!
Ditto for square foot gardening
Ditto for homemade compost
Ditto for tomatoes AHHHH tomatoes still warm from the sun
We've found marigolds to be a great animal repellant as we get them all, rabbit, squirrel, possum, skunk. We also use grey water for our garden from the bathtub, sticking it in gallon milk jugs, putting them under the back porch and using as needed. Rain barrels are a bit problematic here as we have mosquitoes. But someone may well have figured how to solve that one. You may want to check out if your state has any gardening programs. We were given our composters at clinics held locally. The information was wonderful as well. We have two raised beds about 4 by 8, and zero in on what we like best. Tomatoes (we go through alot of sauce), green beans (easy to freeze), some carrots and lettuce and BASIL. We do alot of pesto and basil freezes well. Last year we were given a rhubarb plant from a friend and some seed from a freecycler. So our repetoire will expand this year. Have fun.
This does seem very similar to Mint, although Mint doesn't really give you "advice," it simply keeps track of your accounts and allows you to set a budget and it let's you know when you go over your budget.
I just read this article and signed up about a half hour ago. Thrive tallied all my debt and gave some great recommendations. Also pointed out that I could survive for 0 days without a job :\
Can anyone tell me whether this site is better than MINT? I had been thinking of signing up for MINT but procrastinating.
Something else to possibly do to increase your returns and realize how much you're saving would be to open a savings account or some other interest bearing account and put the money you save from your bulk buying into that account and see how much you have after a year. Interest rates aren't the best right now but it would give you a great illustration of how much you saved and you would also be gaining that much extra from the interest you earn.
I agree with square foot gardening. We just started this year. And we started small - just two 3x3 plots, and a couple of extra pots. I am going to see how it goes, and add on maybe next year. We are CSA members, so I can't go whole hog.
I figure that due to my year-round growing season (So Cal) and relatively fenced-in yard, I could probably provide all of the veggies for my 3-person family in my less than 1/10 acre plot. But I probably won't.
If I were pregnant, I wouldn't be doing it either. I've been meaning to start a garden for years (my seeds are two years old), and it wasn't until this year (when my son is three and old enough to know not to pick the green tomatoes) that we actually started.
I have been using debit, but will reconsider after reading this thought-provoking post. Thanks for the information.
I was laid off my job at the end of 2008 because the business closed. For the first time in 35 years I am collecting unemployment and the job market is horrendous out there.
So I am taking this time to not only look for a job that is an even better fit, but when I get tired of beating the pavement, I take time to do creative things, and I may even have a new business for myself.
Getting the new routine down is the hardest part. Just turning off the TV is important. Staying optimistic gets difficult sometimes and that is when I get out and try a new avenue. This is a great opportunity to do some deeper self examination too. Most importantly, just knowing that this is a temporary situation gets me through.
I've heard of that -a no-lapse guarantee, but I don't quite understand it. Is it a rider that is added?
Thanks for the heads up on the personal finance tool! Boy, it's great to see companies helping people out with their financial education for a change, instead of trying to rip money out of their pockets!
I agree that many gardeners spend more than they will ever get out, and I think it's important to decide if you are gardening as a hobby or of you want to see a return. Permaculture offers small-scale solutions that are conscious of inputs vs. outputs. Today most recommended growing techniques require a lot of fertilizer. And tilling takes a lot of energy. These things will be getting way more expensive, along with commercially grown food. Permaculture gardens are no-till, use more perennials than annuals, and focus on building the soil and controlling pests naturally. The goal is to maximize output versus inputs, which is way different than the typical approach today. While individual plants may yield less (because they are spaced apart, grown without chemical fertilizers, and in the shade of other diverse plants growing nearby) the whole system can yield more.
Much like other online resources that purpote to help you manage your money, you need to do your banking with major companies to derive much benefit from this. Right off the bat, my little community bank is not an option, so I am not sure how much use I can get from this. I will continue to fiddle, but without my checking or savings accounts, what can I do?
If I were going to have a baby in the middle of June, I wouldn't put a lot of time or effort into a garden this year either. :-)
The ROI for gardening depends on a lot of things, including your base of comparison. If you're using it to replace organic produce from Whole Foods, it's easy to come out on top. If you're comparing it to iceberg lettuce and canned tomatoes, it's more of a toss-up.
If you're really hoping to save money on the gardening game, it's important to think in terms of low-fuss, high-yield crops: tomatoes, lettuce, bush beans, and so on. And keep your paraphernalia minimal.
Ditto the comments about Square Foot Gardening. It's a great way to make the most of limited space, with much lower cost and effort than traditional methods.
Don't forget about seed saving; in the age of big corporate agriculture, patents on plants, and genetic modification, it's important to maintain heirloom seed lines. Besides, it's easy to save seeds at the end of the season and dramatically reduce next year's costs; several friends are planning to pool our seeds to start a small local seed bank. Check out Seed Savers Exchange for information and access to seeds.
Finally, for some DIY inspiration, check out The Cheap Vegetable Gardener for homebuilt versions of self-watering containers, upside-down tomato growing, grow lights, hydroponics, and more.
Repeating what others have said...
* gardening costs go down over time, while groceries keep going up - and some predict hyper-inflation which will put a tomato out of the reach of the middle class;
* organics are pricier in the store - you get better quality from your garden;
* gardening increases self-reliance which is a hedge against catastrophic events, in case, for example, Obama fails to charm the nukes off of Iran and N Korea, N51 pandemic, oil prices sky-rocket, a commercial real estate crisis, etc. I'm making my mistakes now, so I will have a reliable garden if or when something happens;
* gardening is a healthy, natural lifestyle choice;
* gardening cuts down on your entertainment bill - gardening is entertainment!
Do yourself a huge favor and experience nurturing a food-giving plant.