This post went in a different direction than I expected. It was a fascinating read though. On a fundamental level, the poor and middle class are not on the same page. This arises from the middle class feeling they must use their hard earned money to support the poor.
Lots of good points in the posts here, but everyone seems to think they have the answer for all. The truth of the matter is that these dynamics are so complex that by the time you're done analyzing them they have changed.
Case in point: a friend of mine just moved into an apartment above a local hardware store. We thought this was great, because all the various tools and things would be right downstairs and would be cheaper than driving 3 miles to Wal-mart. But is it really?
A utility knife cost 2.49 at the local hardware store. The exact same knife, with an additional smaller knife included, cost 1.45 at Wal-Mart. When gas was over $4 a gallon we thought we'd come out ahead buying at the local hardware store. After all, it;s not just the gas, it's the oil, transmission fluid, and wear and tear on the car. Isn't it better to just walk downstairs?
But now we're rethinking this. She walks to work now, and the car sits most of the time. A car needs to be maintained and driven periodically to make sure the battery stays charged, the brakes don't rust together, and many other similar problems. It can end up costing more to NOT drive the car.
So why not get rid of the car? Well, we do live in a small suburb of a medium size city, but you are then limiting yourself to local travel exclusively. No public transportaion here. So do you simply lease a car when you travel? Is that xcheaper in the long run?
My preference is to buy simple gifts so I can spread what I have to more people. I'd rather buy 5 $20 gifts than a $100 iPod. And I think it's sad that people are limited by these trees to iPod or nothing.
Everyone makes a decision by their own values when deciding how to spend their charity dollars. That's what makes the number of charity organizations so great - local vs. international, big wishes vs. basic needs, medical vs. the arts... there are a lot of places we can give. Not all of us can give to everything, so we make choices. Belittling someone for making the choice they do to *give to someone* is only going to take the joy out of their giving. Let's support each other. While I don't agree with buying the expensive gifts personally, some of you do and can do so. I buy the socks, you buy the iPod, and two kids are happy.
You'll note that I referred to it as "illusory wealth."
The thing is, even illusory wealth has an effect on people's spending. Someone who's got a HELOC with $50,000 of available credit, will act as if they could go out and spend that money--different people will act that way to different extents, but in the aggregate, that line of credit is enough like money that it makes a difference.
If that line of credit goes away (because the bank decides that they don't have any equity any more) it won't affect the economy the same as if $50,000 in real money went away, but it does affect the economy.
I am one of those "buy local" sustainable types. At least, I've been a CSA member for 9 years now. And the good this is that I get reasonably priced, delicious produce. I support a local farm so that we don't HAVE to get our food trucked in from somewhere else. And the CSA donates spare food to the food bank.
We also have a local group that goes to homes with fruit trees and collects unwanted fruit for the food bank.
You know, when I was growing up, we were poor. We were "green" and "sustainable" back then because we HAD to be. We had a garden, hung laundry out to dry, wore almost completely hand-me-downs.
I'm torn between spending more for sustainable (I can afford it) and spending less because I'm frugal. I have jeans from JCPenney or Sears because we don't HAVE Walmart or Target. In my mom's home town, Walmart food is 30% cheaper than the other grocery stores, and it's fresher because it sells faster.
I shopped "ethically" even when much poorer by making compromises - I could eat organic food if I also ate vegetarian.
I would say the biggest (unspoken) constraint on purchasing in poverty is actually time and location.
A lot of poor(er) people I know (and I include my former self in this category) have a different kind of time scarcity. I was working full time, trying to better myself through education in the off hours, volunteering because I knew how many people were worse off than I was, and taking public transit that ate up hours of my day - because the easy to access neighborhoods had the highest rent.
Every time I increased my wealth, I was able to "invest" - in better quality products, a better location where I could spend less time on transit, or an educational opportunity. These investments would have been incredibly difficult if I was supporting a family. When I lived next to a Wal-Mart, I bought my groceries there so I would not have to take them over three bus transfers on the way home in winter. I would use fast food coupons if it was nutritious "enough" to get by and cheaper than groceries.
Eventually, I moved to a sustainable location with "local" grocery stores I could access on foot, consignment stores, and even a fashion boutique that made recycled couture. My life there was very inexpensive (cheaper than my wal mart past life) and ethically almost utopian.
Saving the world comes from community planning. It's really difficult for consumers on their own to go off the corporate grid, but really easy for a critical mass in a community to create opportunities (hey, middle class, what's up?). Our farmer's market became THE place to buy food and lined a lot of local producer's pockets. Our co-op brought unpackaged organic grain to the masses for less than Quaker. If you build it, many of the poor (like me!), will come - but Wal-Mart understands this concept far better right now than many of the middle class who rail against it.
I've had success with this letter-writing approach on a couple of occasions. A few years ago I moved to a new state, and there was a problem with my paperwork when I first tried to transfer my RN license to the new state. It was completely not my fault, but had to do with some messed up paperwork from the state I was originally licensed in. After about a year of failed attempts to get the problem solved lower on the food chain, I wrote directly to the Secretary of Wisconsin's Department of Regulation and Licensing, the umbrella organization that oversees the WI Board of Nursing and other licensing organizations in the state. A few months later, my problem was solved. There was a little more involved that just writing a letter to the right person, but that step was the key to getting things moving.
I'm completely with you: I make much the same choices you do, preferring sustainable goods (local when I can get them and fair-trade when I can't). I'm certainly not promoting the idea that sustainable is expensive. In fact, I think it's clear that sustainable is cheaper, if prices include all the externalities. But prices don't include all the externalities--and in that situation, globalized production is (speaking in broad generalities) not only cheaper, it's so much cheaper that only the affluent can choose sustainable goods without having to give up a middle-class standard of living.
Having said that, two minor points:
First (I'm sure you know this, but just to be clear), rising demand doesn't lower prices. What rising demand does is allow manufacturers to increase production, and that increased production will often produce economies of scale--and that's what can lead to lower prices. I think it's important to follow the chain through to the end, because I think the return to scale for local and sustainable production will often be smaller than for globalized production, so I don't think this effect will be strong enough to change math--globalized production will remain cheaper.
Second, so far I kind of like "local" as short-hand for all the other terms (sustainable, organic, fair-trade, cruelty-free, etc.). It's not perfect--any place there's a factory producing goods for global trade the stuff they make is "local" to that spot. But "local" solves a bunch of problems having to do with externalties (the harmful effects are felt right there rather than halfway around the world) and information (if you can see how the animals live and watch them being slaughtered, you can apply your own values to what you eat).
I think there is something wrong with the argument that local and sustainable are values that only middle class and rich consumers aspire to. There is also something wrong with the argument that this has to be expensive. My family is by no means well off -- at least not yet -- but we do have sustainable ideals. But we shop at Wal-Mart. Why? Because we know that our money will go further there.
Let me clarify that. We shop for everyday items at Wal-Mart: Groceries, toilet paper, etc. And whenever we find an organic, recycled, or otherwise sustainably made option, we purchase that -- at WalMart. We don't have a farmer's market nearby, or we'd be shopping there knowing that we'd be cutting out packaging and extra cost by buying our food directly from the people who produced it.
However, for larger purchases like furniture and clothing, we first buy used. Again, I understand that this practice is sustainable only as long as there are people out there buying new items that can be disposed. So like you said, we will take advantage of it while it lasts. If we can't buy used, we try to find items that are sustainably made. For example, my daughter needs some new winter clothes, so I'm trying to find options that are both sustainably made and affordable, and if possible local.
What you failed to mention, however, is that once sustainability becomes the norm rather than the exception in producing such big-budget items as furniture, the demand will dictate that prices will get lower and therefore be more affordable and accessible to the masses. You also failed to mention that "local" is not the only way to be sustainable. Fair Trade is just as important a part of the green movement as local. Fair Trade items are imported, yes, but they provide fair living wages for the artisans who create them.
All in all, I think sustainability is not, and shouldn't be, only a direct function of where you shop. It is about being a conscious consumer in terms of where you shop AND what you buy. And more realistically, it is also a function of what you can afford. But as long as there are people who are promoting the idea that sustainability is expensive, there will be people who will turn away from that ideal because they immediately believe they cannot afford it.
Several people have commented about the cheap stuff at Walmart not lasting long. Sure, a lot of cheap manufactured stuff is poor quality, but a lot is just fine. Two of the best purchases I ever made were like this. I was one of the small number of Americans who bought a Yugo and took care of it. If you treated it like a disposable car, it didn't last long, but if you changed the oil regularly and had it properly maintained it was quite durable. We drove ours for 10 years -- it was a great, rugged, no-frills little car -- and I wish I could buy another. My other example is this wonderful plastic furniture that Rubbermaid used to make. We have an entertainment center and set of bookshelves. We've had them for abut 20 years. I love them because, if they were wood, they'd have gotten beaten by the moves and kids. Maybe gray plastic isn't the finest decor, but they've been both cheap *and*serviceable. I wish I could get more of the bookshelves. Cheap doesn't necessarily equal bad.
You've put your finger on just what Wise Bread is all about. There are lots of things where all that's needed is a bit of knowledge or a bit of perspective for poor folks to get the same advantages as rich folks--and the knowedge and perspective are what we try to provide here.
For other things, though, you can have plenty of knowledge and perspective, and the "best" choice is still only available to people with plenty of cash. In those cases, when there's a "good enough" option provided by the big-box stores, it's going to be so attractive you could tell $300 boot stories until the cows come home--and the poor folks are still going to go with what's possible rather than what's best.
I have to agree with Lucille on her statement about higher quality items. To a large degree this reasoning is correct. We often spend more money on workboots, gloves, winterwear, tires, jeans, eyeglasses, and other items that will be worn well and need to last a long time. We always get our money's worth by investing in them.
That being said, you can't draw a straight line equation between quality, pricing, and the retailer you bought it from. JCPenney's always sells their clothing at a higher price than a Walmart or a Target. Would I say that their clothes are superior in quality? Hardly. I never see my clothing from their "fashion" brands last very long. But if I buy a good pair of Levi's, they will last a long time.
The only problem is now that both JCPenney and Walmart sell Levi's. I will save $5 at least by buying them from Walmart. Does that make me a horrible person? No. Does it put an extra $5 in the college fund for my daughter, the collection plate during the holiday love offerering, or give me a bit more to put towards my Health Savings Account? Yes.
Quality can be found most anywhere. Stores names are not all you need to know when finding quality. That's why retail outlets and online wholesalers are immensely popular and very easy on the budget.
A missing part of the whole argument for Walmart is the logic of a rich man's boots. There is a specific story about this but I can not remember the origin.
The rich man spends $300 on one pair of boots, he has them resoled every few years for a small fee and wears the boots for decades. The poor man buys poor quality shoes for $50 but has to replace them every six months. The shoes can not be repaired and do not last long. Guess who ended up spending more money on boots.
This theory applies to many things offered at Walmart or in general offered to people on the lower income brackets. Walmart is also not the bargain people try to claim it is. One very enlightening incident that really was what caused me to quit shopping Walmart had to do with kids clothes. I always assumed Walmart was cheaper so I quit comparing prices. A child's clothing outfit at Walmart was MORE than a similar outfit at Macy's or Children's Place on sale. Both run sales often enough and in season. The clothing items at these other places are also better quality. This caused me to look at both longevity and price. Walmart lost. But as others mentioned it requires that level of knowledge to make these decisions. Some people don't have the connectedness or know how to do this.
Local and green also is not always more expensive. People too often assume local to be Whole Foods or local trendy places, both cost a metric ton of money. Where we live local can be cheaper. A dozen eggs from the guy south of me is $1. Tomatoes at the farmers market in Sept. were $1. a pound but they were still $2-$3 at the grocery stores. Other veggies were similarly much cheaper at the farmers market when the season ended. We can get grass fed beef for $4 a pound average if we go in on a cow. Many of the cuts at the grocery store are over $4.
The person that mentioned how much the lower classes are bilked out of their income by businesses that target them as a demographic are quite right. The lack of nearby other options compounds this, like neighborhoods with no grocery stores. If people really wanted to make a difference in the lives of these people it would be to go within their community and offer this knowledge and help. San Francisco had groups creating community banks so the "unbanked" had an option other than check cashing stores that took a huge chunk of their pay. Helping people in those communities become better consumers and hold on to more of their money by knowledge of helping set up better options could make huge changes for their lives.
Hi Tal! I believe the cure is to always follow your dreams. One thing Ive realized is that we will never stop being who we are simply because we are trying to be something else. The truth is even if you were not broke that wouldnt make you any more satisfied than you are now. Your desires will always be your desires. Ignoring them will never silence them. I know a lady who is a milionaire but is miserable because she hasnt discovered what she is passionate about. I think its a gift to know what you are passionate about. I know a lot people who dont. Pursuing your passion, that should be the easy part. Okay, so its not so easy, but its rewards make the pursuit worth it.
I say this with ease not because Im anywhere near accomplishing my goals. I discovered what I wanted to do half way through pursuing a degree in something else. I have almost completed my degree and I am very good at it but I realized that regardless of how well I do Im not satisfied because thats not where my heart is. Ive now started pursuing my real passion by taking part time jobs in retail, which is the industry I really want to be in. My degree however is not a waste and neither is anything you have studied. I think people have been giving you very bad advice. There are ways to use the education you have while pursuing your passion.
I know a particular lady who started pursuing what she really wanted to do at 40. Now she is over sixty, happy, looking younger than she did at forty and having the time of her life. Don't give up on your life lady. You are only 28. You can be anything you want to be. Don't allow people to put limitations on what you are capable of.
Wal Mart has made it possible for poor people to buy basketsful of 'stuff' - not quality stuff, just stuff. It seems to make them feel good about things and they confuse quantity with quality.
I understand why people buy at Wal Mart, though. Sometimes it is the only place to purchase certain things - other outlets are gone. In a small town, it is likely the only place to purchase fabric and sewing notions, among other things.
Also if you only have $10 and you or your child needs shoes, Wal Mart is the place to go. That doesn't make it a good thing - it just makes it the only thing.
What would be wrong with sleeping on the floor for a few months in order to save up enough money to purchase something that will last maybe a lifetime, as opposed to something that will end up on the curb in a few years? If it is something that can be postponed in order to buy better quality, I don't understand that.
It all depends, I guess, on what one considers quality of life - and different people see it differently.
We are not illegals, not minorities, not really poor, and in just the last year or were scammed by a doctor, a satellite company, and an attempted scam by a credit card company (that isn't settled yet). I'm sure a lot of people who have had to have computers and cars fixed, or home repairs have been scammed. It isn't limited to local companies or to poor or illegals. It is just a sign of the times, I'm thinking.
Philip, About those "hidden costs" - my fear is that like the emperor's new clothes, only con artists, liars and suckers will be able to see them. When I think of the trillions that will be sucked out of our economy and the individual rights that will be trampled to "fight global warming" I can't easily get in the mood for more "hidden costs" taxes.
But that's the big risk of making the government responsible in people's minds for taking care of all our problems - with responsibility comes the need for power. Combine that with a monopoly on the legitimate use of force and sooner or later you get Stalin, Mugabe or ?
I am poor and fat but when you stand in line to get food from a food pantry for an hour you eat what you get and a nutritionist tood me that the food that I was receving was not good for me what could I do. A persons got eat. So I'm still poor and fat but going to school to better myself so I will not be poor any more.
Are they out there? Sure, and so are money hungry Auto Mechanics, Carpet Cleaners, Plumbers, Roofers, CPA's, Attorneys, Doctors, etc. And, as the saying goes- a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch.
Look people, if you can do it yourself, no matter if it's your taxes, plumbing, selling your home, etc-- GO FOR WHAT YOU KNOW! As a Realtor, I do. I do my own plumbing because I am comfortable with it, but I won't do my own taxes. I hate paying my CPA in excess of $1500 to do them, however- why bash him because he is trained in his field? It's his profession. This is what he does. Sure, I can buy some PC program, and do it my self, but why would I want to risk it? Taxes are not my thing! I don't have a desire to learn them, either. Another thing I hate paying $500-600 for a brake job on my car, and I bet my mechanic wishes he kept it all- but after paying all his overhead- he will in fact, keep very little.
Same goes for Realtors. Now, not withstanding the bad apples- we have to split it with the brokerage, pay errors and omissions insurance, our MLS fees, NAR fees, Local Board Fees, Desk Fees, our own Advertising, car expenses, etc. YES- even Realtors under the umbrella of a brokerage, pay to be in their profession. Did I mention paying for continuing education? Bottom Line- I'm sick and tired of the general public thinking we make all kinds of money, no doubt- from them! We are like any other business; money is made through volume sales. So, yeah your Realtor drives a 'Power Car'. Bet he also works his a$# off for it, too!
Now- as for pricing a home, as a Sellers Broker- again, notwithstanding the 'bad apples'. Most Realtors simply run the numbers in the area, and suggest to the sellers an asking price. It is up to the seller to instruct the Realtor on what to ask. But, here is where the double edged sword come's in for us- that your typical consumer has no idea of- If you as a seller, want an amount that is way too high, or exceeds the condition or location of the home- then why in the world would we, as Realtors, want to spend our time, and our money- trying to market a home like this? It's not the consumers money being spent on marketing, it's ours. Then, if we suggest a lower price- we then have no idea how great 'their house' is, and we just want a quick sale! You know what- sell it yourself, then, if you know so much! (not to mention if it's overpriced, no one will look at it, and of course, it'll be the Realtors fault)
EXAMPLE- your brother is leaving the state, and asks you to sell his 1989 Chevy, 175,000 miles, faded paint. He says- 'It's a really reliable car, and whatever you sell it for over $2000, you can keep'. However, you being familiar with car values in your area, know the car is only worth $1500, tops. You with me? Why in the world would you bother to - run ads in the local newspapers with your money, take time to put in on the internet, run it to the corner intersection with a for sale sign in the window, etc. Hmmm??? Well???
Funny story- (well, I think it's funny, and pat myself on the back for it, everyday) I had a seller wanting to sell, tell me 'If you can get me $300K for my place, after your fees and other costs, I'd list with you today.' So- I said sure, but I needed $1500 non refundable marketing money up front, credited back at closing. Needless to say- I did not get the listing. By the way, the market comps came in at $260K- $270K. A few days later- it was on the market- for $339K!!! Wow- they found a sucker agent! Well, long story short, it's been 279 days on the market now, they are on their 3rd Realtor, and it's now listed for $289K. (of course reducing the price with each re-list) They are getting closer. But, what did I know? I just 'wanted to low ball it' for a quick sale! Yeah, right!
Oh- my other favorite- acting as a Buyers Broker- is the buyers that claim we want them to pay full price- so we Realtors can make more. Here's another double edged sword. No matter if it's a buyers or sellers market- if a buyer really expresses- I love this house- have to have it, what should I offer? Well, if we suggest full price, (after running comps, of course and confirming it is within marker value for what/where it is) - well then, it's because we are greedy. BUT, if we suggest a lower price, and truly another offer comes in higher- and they don't get it- now we're dirt'!!!
Well, which is it, MR/MRS Consumer? Do you want our help or not? Remember- if you know so much, go do it yourself. If you know all about what an FHA/VA appraiser will look for, or all about Lead Based Paint disclosures and the possible fines involked by the EPA- and understand the inspections and subject to's', and all your other options- THEN GO FOR WHAT YOU KNOW! But, don't bash us for making a living in a field that we, as Realtors, train for. We walk a fine line at being sued at the drop of a dime.
Besides, the difference between a $300K sale and a $290K sale, as a buyer broker being paid 3%, is only $300!! And that's BEFORE splitting the 3% with the brokerage!! For me, after my split, it would mean a whole extra $255! Now, and of course, most all the savvy Realtors like me, know this. If I can get my buyer a true deal, meaning they are willing to play hardball, and won't cry if they don't get the house, I know they will refer me to many friends, which in turn equates to tens of thousands of potential dollars in future commissions, rather than making an extra $255 now!
In conclusion, I'm tired of being bashed by ignorant consumers, and I do, in fact, sleep at night- because I truly am looking out for my buyers! Usually, most all of my past client become friends of mine. So, I think there are about as many Realtors that suck, as there are consumers that suck!!
She hates buying new products because of the waste of packaging, shipping, and all of the energy used to make the items we so thoughtlessly consume. Just today she was talking about starting a blog in her attempt to never buy a new product ever again. I think that's a cool idea.
She's getting her plans together to start a thrift store.
What I find funny about cheap taco Tuesday is that it happens here, in Seattle. I don't know if ever taco truck participates, but my favorite establishment does. No beer to be had in the middle of day, but I can't argue with 69-cent tacos!
For those of you who don't know Nora, try to check into her other blogs and past blog posts from Wise Bread. It's true that not everyone can live the lifestyle that Nora does, but that doesn't mean that nothing can be taken her advice. I personally can't travel the world (I have pets, and I'm not about to give them up), but it doesn't mean that I can't glean info from Nora's blog posts.
"make your vacation and having fun in general a state of mind, not a set of criteria or a checklist of experiences that must happen"
I think that the above statement is something that everyone can agree with, right? I haven't had a paid vacation in over 6 years, but it doesn't mean that I don't get a great deal of enjoyment from the small bits of time off that I have from work here and there. Vacation is a state of mind, not a location.
It may help in your effort to shed belongings to think of both the "front" end and the "back" end; they are different. The front end consists of everything that comes through the front door into your house. The back end consists of everything you're hauling out the back door to the trash (or recycling, or sale or whatever).
If you have a tendency to hoard possessions, it doesn't matter which you work on first - the front or the back - just make a start. Most people have too much stuff because they don't purge enough or on a regular enough basis, for whatever reason (usually an emotional issue of some sort - attachment, fear of not having something when you need it etc).
Manage the front end. Only buy things you need, and examine why you're buying it. Manage the back end. Only keep things you use or that have sentimental value. It doesn't matter how you get rid of your excess, just do it. The energy in your house will change.
Most importantly, take it easy on yourself. As the old saw goes, we're all in this alone together.
My humble opinion is that those who have the wealth to buy local and stay our of Walmart should. But give poor people a break. For many of them, Walmart does more for their quality of life than the federal government.
i am also an employee at papa murphy's. as the above person already stated, sometimes certain pizzas are premade or quicker to make which is why some pizzas come out out of order. at the store where i work, we keep all tickets in order(including call in orders) and make them as fast as we can. i'm sure the store you went to was badly run or had new employees or something of that nature. many of our customers say that papa murphy's is the best pizza they've ever had. which is why they keep coming back. i agree that the system is flawed, and if i could figure out a better way to run things i would definitely suggest it. but, at least at our store, we do our best.
suggestions would be to come on a slower night instead of fridays. and if you ever have to wait longer than 10 minutes (unless you were told the wait would be longer) just go ask them to check on it. sometimes tickets get lost or misplaced. mistakes do happen. (again at our store we often offer something for free when you have to wait a long time-free cookie dough or something)
in response to any negative comments or to people who do not understand the concept... i think that people like papa murphy's because it's convenient for a lot of people. you can bake the pizza whenever you want to and have it fresh and hot. also our ingredients are fresh (once again-at least at my store..). all veggies are chopped daily. dough is made daily. as are salads and cookie dough. and cheese is grated daily. if you do not understand the concept of take n bake then don't go there..simple as that. but the reason that people choose it over frozen pizzas from the grocery store is because it's BETTER. and the reason that people choose it over pizza hut, dominos, etc.. is because it's cheaper, hot and fresh when you bake it, no need for a delivery charge or a tip, and many people just think it tastes better. give it a try and see what you think. it may have you hooked. and if you don't care for it, then don't go back.
You're right. In fact, buying something that would otherwise have entered the waste stream is purely good--since the item doesn't need to be produced, it doesn't produce any negative externalities.
However, in the medium term, the practice isn't sustainable. Those items only exist because other people are buying new stuff (and throwing away their old stuff). As production becomes more sustainable, the huge amount of used stuff currently available will dry up. So, use that resource now, but understand that it depends on current unsustainable practices.
This post went in a different direction than I expected. It was a fascinating read though. On a fundamental level, the poor and middle class are not on the same page. This arises from the middle class feeling they must use their hard earned money to support the poor.
Lots of good points in the posts here, but everyone seems to think they have the answer for all. The truth of the matter is that these dynamics are so complex that by the time you're done analyzing them they have changed.
Case in point: a friend of mine just moved into an apartment above a local hardware store. We thought this was great, because all the various tools and things would be right downstairs and would be cheaper than driving 3 miles to Wal-mart. But is it really?
A utility knife cost 2.49 at the local hardware store. The exact same knife, with an additional smaller knife included, cost 1.45 at Wal-Mart. When gas was over $4 a gallon we thought we'd come out ahead buying at the local hardware store. After all, it;s not just the gas, it's the oil, transmission fluid, and wear and tear on the car. Isn't it better to just walk downstairs?
But now we're rethinking this. She walks to work now, and the car sits most of the time. A car needs to be maintained and driven periodically to make sure the battery stays charged, the brakes don't rust together, and many other similar problems. It can end up costing more to NOT drive the car.
So why not get rid of the car? Well, we do live in a small suburb of a medium size city, but you are then limiting yourself to local travel exclusively. No public transportaion here. So do you simply lease a car when you travel? Is that xcheaper in the long run?
See how complicated this gets, real fast?
My preference is to buy simple gifts so I can spread what I have to more people. I'd rather buy 5 $20 gifts than a $100 iPod. And I think it's sad that people are limited by these trees to iPod or nothing.
Everyone makes a decision by their own values when deciding how to spend their charity dollars. That's what makes the number of charity organizations so great - local vs. international, big wishes vs. basic needs, medical vs. the arts... there are a lot of places we can give. Not all of us can give to everything, so we make choices. Belittling someone for making the choice they do to *give to someone* is only going to take the joy out of their giving. Let's support each other. While I don't agree with buying the expensive gifts personally, some of you do and can do so. I buy the socks, you buy the iPod, and two kids are happy.
You'll note that I referred to it as "illusory wealth."
The thing is, even illusory wealth has an effect on people's spending. Someone who's got a HELOC with $50,000 of available credit, will act as if they could go out and spend that money--different people will act that way to different extents, but in the aggregate, that line of credit is enough like money that it makes a difference.
If that line of credit goes away (because the bank decides that they don't have any equity any more) it won't affect the economy the same as if $50,000 in real money went away, but it does affect the economy.
I am one of those "buy local" sustainable types. At least, I've been a CSA member for 9 years now. And the good this is that I get reasonably priced, delicious produce. I support a local farm so that we don't HAVE to get our food trucked in from somewhere else. And the CSA donates spare food to the food bank.
We also have a local group that goes to homes with fruit trees and collects unwanted fruit for the food bank.
You know, when I was growing up, we were poor. We were "green" and "sustainable" back then because we HAD to be. We had a garden, hung laundry out to dry, wore almost completely hand-me-downs.
I'm torn between spending more for sustainable (I can afford it) and spending less because I'm frugal. I have jeans from JCPenney or Sears because we don't HAVE Walmart or Target. In my mom's home town, Walmart food is 30% cheaper than the other grocery stores, and it's fresher because it sells faster.
This discussion is fascinating.
I shopped "ethically" even when much poorer by making compromises - I could eat organic food if I also ate vegetarian.
I would say the biggest (unspoken) constraint on purchasing in poverty is actually time and location.
A lot of poor(er) people I know (and I include my former self in this category) have a different kind of time scarcity. I was working full time, trying to better myself through education in the off hours, volunteering because I knew how many people were worse off than I was, and taking public transit that ate up hours of my day - because the easy to access neighborhoods had the highest rent.
Every time I increased my wealth, I was able to "invest" - in better quality products, a better location where I could spend less time on transit, or an educational opportunity. These investments would have been incredibly difficult if I was supporting a family. When I lived next to a Wal-Mart, I bought my groceries there so I would not have to take them over three bus transfers on the way home in winter. I would use fast food coupons if it was nutritious "enough" to get by and cheaper than groceries.
Eventually, I moved to a sustainable location with "local" grocery stores I could access on foot, consignment stores, and even a fashion boutique that made recycled couture. My life there was very inexpensive (cheaper than my wal mart past life) and ethically almost utopian.
Saving the world comes from community planning. It's really difficult for consumers on their own to go off the corporate grid, but really easy for a critical mass in a community to create opportunities (hey, middle class, what's up?). Our farmer's market became THE place to buy food and lined a lot of local producer's pockets. Our co-op brought unpackaged organic grain to the masses for less than Quaker. If you build it, many of the poor (like me!), will come - but Wal-Mart understands this concept far better right now than many of the middle class who rail against it.
I've had success with this letter-writing approach on a couple of occasions. A few years ago I moved to a new state, and there was a problem with my paperwork when I first tried to transfer my RN license to the new state. It was completely not my fault, but had to do with some messed up paperwork from the state I was originally licensed in. After about a year of failed attempts to get the problem solved lower on the food chain, I wrote directly to the Secretary of Wisconsin's Department of Regulation and Licensing, the umbrella organization that oversees the WI Board of Nursing and other licensing organizations in the state. A few months later, my problem was solved. There was a little more involved that just writing a letter to the right person, but that step was the key to getting things moving.
@ Jennae:
I'm completely with you: I make much the same choices you do, preferring sustainable goods (local when I can get them and fair-trade when I can't). I'm certainly not promoting the idea that sustainable is expensive. In fact, I think it's clear that sustainable is cheaper, if prices include all the externalities. But prices don't include all the externalities--and in that situation, globalized production is (speaking in broad generalities) not only cheaper, it's so much cheaper that only the affluent can choose sustainable goods without having to give up a middle-class standard of living.
Having said that, two minor points:
First (I'm sure you know this, but just to be clear), rising demand doesn't lower prices. What rising demand does is allow manufacturers to increase production, and that increased production will often produce economies of scale--and that's what can lead to lower prices. I think it's important to follow the chain through to the end, because I think the return to scale for local and sustainable production will often be smaller than for globalized production, so I don't think this effect will be strong enough to change math--globalized production will remain cheaper.
Second, so far I kind of like "local" as short-hand for all the other terms (sustainable, organic, fair-trade, cruelty-free, etc.). It's not perfect--any place there's a factory producing goods for global trade the stuff they make is "local" to that spot. But "local" solves a bunch of problems having to do with externalties (the harmful effects are felt right there rather than halfway around the world) and information (if you can see how the animals live and watch them being slaughtered, you can apply your own values to what you eat).
I think there is something wrong with the argument that local and sustainable are values that only middle class and rich consumers aspire to. There is also something wrong with the argument that this has to be expensive. My family is by no means well off -- at least not yet -- but we do have sustainable ideals. But we shop at Wal-Mart. Why? Because we know that our money will go further there.
Let me clarify that. We shop for everyday items at Wal-Mart: Groceries, toilet paper, etc. And whenever we find an organic, recycled, or otherwise sustainably made option, we purchase that -- at WalMart. We don't have a farmer's market nearby, or we'd be shopping there knowing that we'd be cutting out packaging and extra cost by buying our food directly from the people who produced it.
However, for larger purchases like furniture and clothing, we first buy used. Again, I understand that this practice is sustainable only as long as there are people out there buying new items that can be disposed. So like you said, we will take advantage of it while it lasts. If we can't buy used, we try to find items that are sustainably made. For example, my daughter needs some new winter clothes, so I'm trying to find options that are both sustainably made and affordable, and if possible local.
What you failed to mention, however, is that once sustainability becomes the norm rather than the exception in producing such big-budget items as furniture, the demand will dictate that prices will get lower and therefore be more affordable and accessible to the masses. You also failed to mention that "local" is not the only way to be sustainable. Fair Trade is just as important a part of the green movement as local. Fair Trade items are imported, yes, but they provide fair living wages for the artisans who create them.
All in all, I think sustainability is not, and shouldn't be, only a direct function of where you shop. It is about being a conscious consumer in terms of where you shop AND what you buy. And more realistically, it is also a function of what you can afford. But as long as there are people who are promoting the idea that sustainability is expensive, there will be people who will turn away from that ideal because they immediately believe they cannot afford it.
Several people have commented about the cheap stuff at Walmart not lasting long. Sure, a lot of cheap manufactured stuff is poor quality, but a lot is just fine. Two of the best purchases I ever made were like this. I was one of the small number of Americans who bought a Yugo and took care of it. If you treated it like a disposable car, it didn't last long, but if you changed the oil regularly and had it properly maintained it was quite durable. We drove ours for 10 years -- it was a great, rugged, no-frills little car -- and I wish I could buy another. My other example is this wonderful plastic furniture that Rubbermaid used to make. We have an entertainment center and set of bookshelves. We've had them for abut 20 years. I love them because, if they were wood, they'd have gotten beaten by the moves and kids. Maybe gray plastic isn't the finest decor, but they've been both cheap *and*serviceable. I wish I could get more of the bookshelves. Cheap doesn't necessarily equal bad.
@ lucille:
You've put your finger on just what Wise Bread is all about. There are lots of things where all that's needed is a bit of knowledge or a bit of perspective for poor folks to get the same advantages as rich folks--and the knowedge and perspective are what we try to provide here.
For other things, though, you can have plenty of knowledge and perspective, and the "best" choice is still only available to people with plenty of cash. In those cases, when there's a "good enough" option provided by the big-box stores, it's going to be so attractive you could tell $300 boot stories until the cows come home--and the poor folks are still going to go with what's possible rather than what's best.
I have to agree with Lucille on her statement about higher quality items. To a large degree this reasoning is correct. We often spend more money on workboots, gloves, winterwear, tires, jeans, eyeglasses, and other items that will be worn well and need to last a long time. We always get our money's worth by investing in them.
That being said, you can't draw a straight line equation between quality, pricing, and the retailer you bought it from. JCPenney's always sells their clothing at a higher price than a Walmart or a Target. Would I say that their clothes are superior in quality? Hardly. I never see my clothing from their "fashion" brands last very long. But if I buy a good pair of Levi's, they will last a long time.
The only problem is now that both JCPenney and Walmart sell Levi's. I will save $5 at least by buying them from Walmart. Does that make me a horrible person? No. Does it put an extra $5 in the college fund for my daughter, the collection plate during the holiday love offerering, or give me a bit more to put towards my Health Savings Account? Yes.
Quality can be found most anywhere. Stores names are not all you need to know when finding quality. That's why retail outlets and online wholesalers are immensely popular and very easy on the budget.
Linsey Knerl
A missing part of the whole argument for Walmart is the logic of a rich man's boots. There is a specific story about this but I can not remember the origin.
The rich man spends $300 on one pair of boots, he has them resoled every few years for a small fee and wears the boots for decades. The poor man buys poor quality shoes for $50 but has to replace them every six months. The shoes can not be repaired and do not last long. Guess who ended up spending more money on boots.
This theory applies to many things offered at Walmart or in general offered to people on the lower income brackets. Walmart is also not the bargain people try to claim it is. One very enlightening incident that really was what caused me to quit shopping Walmart had to do with kids clothes. I always assumed Walmart was cheaper so I quit comparing prices. A child's clothing outfit at Walmart was MORE than a similar outfit at Macy's or Children's Place on sale. Both run sales often enough and in season. The clothing items at these other places are also better quality. This caused me to look at both longevity and price. Walmart lost. But as others mentioned it requires that level of knowledge to make these decisions. Some people don't have the connectedness or know how to do this.
Local and green also is not always more expensive. People too often assume local to be Whole Foods or local trendy places, both cost a metric ton of money. Where we live local can be cheaper. A dozen eggs from the guy south of me is $1. Tomatoes at the farmers market in Sept. were $1. a pound but they were still $2-$3 at the grocery stores. Other veggies were similarly much cheaper at the farmers market when the season ended. We can get grass fed beef for $4 a pound average if we go in on a cow. Many of the cuts at the grocery store are over $4.
The person that mentioned how much the lower classes are bilked out of their income by businesses that target them as a demographic are quite right. The lack of nearby other options compounds this, like neighborhoods with no grocery stores. If people really wanted to make a difference in the lives of these people it would be to go within their community and offer this knowledge and help. San Francisco had groups creating community banks so the "unbanked" had an option other than check cashing stores that took a huge chunk of their pay. Helping people in those communities become better consumers and hold on to more of their money by knowledge of helping set up better options could make huge changes for their lives.
Hi Tal! I believe the cure is to always follow your dreams. One thing Ive realized is that we will never stop being who we are simply because we are trying to be something else. The truth is even if you were not broke that wouldnt make you any more satisfied than you are now. Your desires will always be your desires. Ignoring them will never silence them. I know a lady who is a milionaire but is miserable because she hasnt discovered what she is passionate about. I think its a gift to know what you are passionate about. I know a lot people who dont. Pursuing your passion, that should be the easy part. Okay, so its not so easy, but its rewards make the pursuit worth it.
I say this with ease not because Im anywhere near accomplishing my goals. I discovered what I wanted to do half way through pursuing a degree in something else. I have almost completed my degree and I am very good at it but I realized that regardless of how well I do Im not satisfied because thats not where my heart is. Ive now started pursuing my real passion by taking part time jobs in retail, which is the industry I really want to be in. My degree however is not a waste and neither is anything you have studied. I think people have been giving you very bad advice. There are ways to use the education you have while pursuing your passion.
I know a particular lady who started pursuing what she really wanted to do at 40. Now she is over sixty, happy, looking younger than she did at forty and having the time of her life. Don't give up on your life lady. You are only 28. You can be anything you want to be. Don't allow people to put limitations on what you are capable of.
Jana
There are good points in most all posts here.
Wal Mart has made it possible for poor people to buy basketsful of 'stuff' - not quality stuff, just stuff. It seems to make them feel good about things and they confuse quantity with quality.
I understand why people buy at Wal Mart, though. Sometimes it is the only place to purchase certain things - other outlets are gone. In a small town, it is likely the only place to purchase fabric and sewing notions, among other things.
Also if you only have $10 and you or your child needs shoes, Wal Mart is the place to go. That doesn't make it a good thing - it just makes it the only thing.
What would be wrong with sleeping on the floor for a few months in order to save up enough money to purchase something that will last maybe a lifetime, as opposed to something that will end up on the curb in a few years? If it is something that can be postponed in order to buy better quality, I don't understand that.
It all depends, I guess, on what one considers quality of life - and different people see it differently.
We are not illegals, not minorities, not really poor, and in just the last year or were scammed by a doctor, a satellite company, and an attempted scam by a credit card company (that isn't settled yet). I'm sure a lot of people who have had to have computers and cars fixed, or home repairs have been scammed. It isn't limited to local companies or to poor or illegals. It is just a sign of the times, I'm thinking.
Philip, About those "hidden costs" - my fear is that like the emperor's new clothes, only con artists, liars and suckers will be able to see them. When I think of the trillions that will be sucked out of our economy and the individual rights that will be trampled to "fight global warming" I can't easily get in the mood for more "hidden costs" taxes.
But that's the big risk of making the government responsible in people's minds for taking care of all our problems - with responsibility comes the need for power. Combine that with a monopoly on the legitimate use of force and sooner or later you get Stalin, Mugabe or ?
I am poor and fat but when you stand in line to get food from a food pantry for an hour you eat what you get and a nutritionist tood me that the food that I was receving was not good for me what could I do. A persons got eat. So I'm still poor and fat but going to school to better myself so I will not be poor any more.
next summer, and I want to know where this funky shopping area is! Little help?
Are they out there? Sure, and so are money hungry Auto Mechanics, Carpet Cleaners, Plumbers, Roofers, CPA's, Attorneys, Doctors, etc. And, as the saying goes- a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch.
Look people, if you can do it yourself, no matter if it's your taxes, plumbing, selling your home, etc-- GO FOR WHAT YOU KNOW! As a Realtor, I do. I do my own plumbing because I am comfortable with it, but I won't do my own taxes. I hate paying my CPA in excess of $1500 to do them, however- why bash him because he is trained in his field? It's his profession. This is what he does. Sure, I can buy some PC program, and do it my self, but why would I want to risk it? Taxes are not my thing! I don't have a desire to learn them, either. Another thing I hate paying $500-600 for a brake job on my car, and I bet my mechanic wishes he kept it all- but after paying all his overhead- he will in fact, keep very little.
Same goes for Realtors. Now, not withstanding the bad apples- we have to split it with the brokerage, pay errors and omissions insurance, our MLS fees, NAR fees, Local Board Fees, Desk Fees, our own Advertising, car expenses, etc. YES- even Realtors under the umbrella of a brokerage, pay to be in their profession. Did I mention paying for continuing education? Bottom Line- I'm sick and tired of the general public thinking we make all kinds of money, no doubt- from them! We are like any other business; money is made through volume sales. So, yeah your Realtor drives a 'Power Car'. Bet he also works his a$# off for it, too!
Now- as for pricing a home, as a Sellers Broker- again, notwithstanding the 'bad apples'. Most Realtors simply run the numbers in the area, and suggest to the sellers an asking price. It is up to the seller to instruct the Realtor on what to ask. But, here is where the double edged sword come's in for us- that your typical consumer has no idea of- If you as a seller, want an amount that is way too high, or exceeds the condition or location of the home- then why in the world would we, as Realtors, want to spend our time, and our money- trying to market a home like this? It's not the consumers money being spent on marketing, it's ours. Then, if we suggest a lower price- we then have no idea how great 'their house' is, and we just want a quick sale! You know what- sell it yourself, then, if you know so much! (not to mention if it's overpriced, no one will look at it, and of course, it'll be the Realtors fault)
EXAMPLE- your brother is leaving the state, and asks you to sell his 1989 Chevy, 175,000 miles, faded paint. He says- 'It's a really reliable car, and whatever you sell it for over $2000, you can keep'. However, you being familiar with car values in your area, know the car is only worth $1500, tops. You with me? Why in the world would you bother to - run ads in the local newspapers with your money, take time to put in on the internet, run it to the corner intersection with a for sale sign in the window, etc. Hmmm??? Well???
Funny story- (well, I think it's funny, and pat myself on the back for it, everyday) I had a seller wanting to sell, tell me 'If you can get me $300K for my place, after your fees and other costs, I'd list with you today.' So- I said sure, but I needed $1500 non refundable marketing money up front, credited back at closing. Needless to say- I did not get the listing. By the way, the market comps came in at $260K- $270K. A few days later- it was on the market- for $339K!!! Wow- they found a sucker agent! Well, long story short, it's been 279 days on the market now, they are on their 3rd Realtor, and it's now listed for $289K. (of course reducing the price with each re-list) They are getting closer. But, what did I know? I just 'wanted to low ball it' for a quick sale! Yeah, right!
Oh- my other favorite- acting as a Buyers Broker- is the buyers that claim we want them to pay full price- so we Realtors can make more. Here's another double edged sword. No matter if it's a buyers or sellers market- if a buyer really expresses- I love this house- have to have it, what should I offer? Well, if we suggest full price, (after running comps, of course and confirming it is within marker value for what/where it is) - well then, it's because we are greedy. BUT, if we suggest a lower price, and truly another offer comes in higher- and they don't get it- now we're dirt'!!!
Well, which is it, MR/MRS Consumer? Do you want our help or not? Remember- if you know so much, go do it yourself. If you know all about what an FHA/VA appraiser will look for, or all about Lead Based Paint disclosures and the possible fines involked by the EPA- and understand the inspections and subject to's', and all your other options- THEN GO FOR WHAT YOU KNOW! But, don't bash us for making a living in a field that we, as Realtors, train for. We walk a fine line at being sued at the drop of a dime.
Besides, the difference between a $300K sale and a $290K sale, as a buyer broker being paid 3%, is only $300!! And that's BEFORE splitting the 3% with the brokerage!! For me, after my split, it would mean a whole extra $255! Now, and of course, most all the savvy Realtors like me, know this. If I can get my buyer a true deal, meaning they are willing to play hardball, and won't cry if they don't get the house, I know they will refer me to many friends, which in turn equates to tens of thousands of potential dollars in future commissions, rather than making an extra $255 now!
In conclusion, I'm tired of being bashed by ignorant consumers, and I do, in fact, sleep at night- because I truly am looking out for my buyers! Usually, most all of my past client become friends of mine. So, I think there are about as many Realtors that suck, as there are consumers that suck!!
My girlfriend is the model for buying used.
She hates buying new products because of the waste of packaging, shipping, and all of the energy used to make the items we so thoughtlessly consume. Just today she was talking about starting a blog in her attempt to never buy a new product ever again. I think that's a cool idea.
She's getting her plans together to start a thrift store.
Hope all is well with the travels.
What I find funny about cheap taco Tuesday is that it happens here, in Seattle. I don't know if ever taco truck participates, but my favorite establishment does. No beer to be had in the middle of day, but I can't argue with 69-cent tacos!
For those of you who don't know Nora, try to check into her other blogs and past blog posts from Wise Bread. It's true that not everyone can live the lifestyle that Nora does, but that doesn't mean that nothing can be taken her advice. I personally can't travel the world (I have pets, and I'm not about to give them up), but it doesn't mean that I can't glean info from Nora's blog posts.
"make your vacation and having fun in general a state of mind, not a set of criteria or a checklist of experiences that must happen"
I think that the above statement is something that everyone can agree with, right? I haven't had a paid vacation in over 6 years, but it doesn't mean that I don't get a great deal of enjoyment from the small bits of time off that I have from work here and there. Vacation is a state of mind, not a location.
I just found this article and I really liked it.
It may help in your effort to shed belongings to think of both the "front" end and the "back" end; they are different. The front end consists of everything that comes through the front door into your house. The back end consists of everything you're hauling out the back door to the trash (or recycling, or sale or whatever).
If you have a tendency to hoard possessions, it doesn't matter which you work on first - the front or the back - just make a start. Most people have too much stuff because they don't purge enough or on a regular enough basis, for whatever reason (usually an emotional issue of some sort - attachment, fear of not having something when you need it etc).
Manage the front end. Only buy things you need, and examine why you're buying it. Manage the back end. Only keep things you use or that have sentimental value. It doesn't matter how you get rid of your excess, just do it. The energy in your house will change.
Most importantly, take it easy on yourself. As the old saw goes, we're all in this alone together.
My humble opinion is that those who have the wealth to buy local and stay our of Walmart should. But give poor people a break. For many of them, Walmart does more for their quality of life than the federal government.
i am also an employee at papa murphy's. as the above person already stated, sometimes certain pizzas are premade or quicker to make which is why some pizzas come out out of order. at the store where i work, we keep all tickets in order(including call in orders) and make them as fast as we can. i'm sure the store you went to was badly run or had new employees or something of that nature. many of our customers say that papa murphy's is the best pizza they've ever had. which is why they keep coming back. i agree that the system is flawed, and if i could figure out a better way to run things i would definitely suggest it. but, at least at our store, we do our best.
suggestions would be to come on a slower night instead of fridays. and if you ever have to wait longer than 10 minutes (unless you were told the wait would be longer) just go ask them to check on it. sometimes tickets get lost or misplaced. mistakes do happen. (again at our store we often offer something for free when you have to wait a long time-free cookie dough or something)
in response to any negative comments or to people who do not understand the concept... i think that people like papa murphy's because it's convenient for a lot of people. you can bake the pizza whenever you want to and have it fresh and hot. also our ingredients are fresh (once again-at least at my store..). all veggies are chopped daily. dough is made daily. as are salads and cookie dough. and cheese is grated daily. if you do not understand the concept of take n bake then don't go there..simple as that. but the reason that people choose it over frozen pizzas from the grocery store is because it's BETTER. and the reason that people choose it over pizza hut, dominos, etc.. is because it's cheaper, hot and fresh when you bake it, no need for a delivery charge or a tip, and many people just think it tastes better. give it a try and see what you think. it may have you hooked. and if you don't care for it, then don't go back.
@ M. Wong:
You're right. In fact, buying something that would otherwise have entered the waste stream is purely good--since the item doesn't need to be produced, it doesn't produce any negative externalities.
However, in the medium term, the practice isn't sustainable. Those items only exist because other people are buying new stuff (and throwing away their old stuff). As production becomes more sustainable, the huge amount of used stuff currently available will dry up. So, use that resource now, but understand that it depends on current unsustainable practices.