"Raising tax rates on the rich and slashing them for the poor disincents both groups from being productive, working hard, taking risks, (i.e. start businesses) and trying to make more money"
From 1930-1980 the tax rate for high earners was much higher than it is now. During this time America's economic greatness was born. Right now hedge fund managers pay 15% tax on their income; yeah they take risks- on subprime mortgages.
Dad made well more than $50,000 a year from his New Car Dealership when I was a child in the early 60's.
Probably equivalent today to Half a Million. Did he take home more than $50,000...NO.
Why? Because the marginal Tax Bracket then was 50%..WITHOUT Social Security. 50% of his $50,000...$25,000....went to Federal Income Tax.
And if he had taken what he really made out..more than $150,000 he would have been in a 70% tax bracket..the rate then was 70% on ANYTHING over $103,000.
Why work when you're going to lose so much of it to the Government??? Businessmen worked ways around it..and I am NOT ashamed to say my father or any of his kids haven't taken advantage of any loophole we could find.
Thus came about the Three Martini Lunch, Company Car(s), Stock Options, and Week Long Conventions in Vegas....all Non-Cash (or Taxed) ways of paying someone.
And don't tell me Public Officials don't pig at that trough as well.
Here Police Officers get Free or Discounted rent on apartments, Dominos Pizza show your badge (Firemen as well) any Pizza $3 picked up. Usually 50% off at any restaurant. The patrol car and the gas to go with it...oh! did I forget they can use it on their Off Duty Jobs. Florida says they must reimburse the department for $3 per hour for use of the car. And the biggest perk on HUDs website is the Policeman, Fireman, Teacher Next Door program where if you take a Foreclosed house in a not too desireable neighborhood and live in it for two years you get it at HALF PRICE!!
And what does all this have to do with the candidates Tax Positions?? It shows that they are meaningless as ways are ALWAYS found around whatever law is put into place...and its not just "the Rich" who take advantage of it.
At leas at my college, financial aid was awarded no differently than if one was studying domestically. No special grants required. Pell grants were paid to the college, and then were transferred to the foreign program or cash.
Curious, you sure that's what you wanted as your parting belief? Sounds like money=getting further in life. I am no bastion of knowledge, but the wealthy I know don't seem any happier, just well fed.
Good Lord WiseBread?!?!?!?! When did this blog become a bastion of liberalism? Between the shill for the Democratic party that posted his "analysis" of the candidates' tax plans, and your vitriolic screed against capitalism, one wonders about your own endeavors of monetizing the blog. Are you not profiting on individuals misdeeds, or susceptibility to debt etc? Why not offer the advice for sheer altruistic reasons?
If this is indicative of things to come, I can tell you for sure that this subscription will get nixed soon.
Cut the bullshit, give us some tips on fiscal responsibility and leave the partisan proselytizing to the politicians.
You're right, people like you rarely get rich, and deservedly so. If you worked just 1/4 of the time you spend victimizing yourself or proffering derision, you might actually get further in life.
For decades I couldn't find a dream worth changing my overspending habits for until I finally found out about blogging. I wanted to be a writer someday, but I couldn't figure out how I'd ever get published. Too risky to give up my 6-figure day job! Then, last year I learned about blogging, and suddenly everything clicked into place! I saw how I could get my message out to people all over the world with very little investment -- if only I could stop my mad spending and embrace the polar opposite of the lifestyle I'd grown accustomed to.
I went cold turkey almost overnight when I finally found a dream worth pursuing: spending the rest of my life doing exactly what I love. My heart was on fire for this -- whereas, previously, the only incentive to cut spending and save was early retirement, which never excited me much b/c I thought, "And then what?" Now, living a ridiculously frugal lifestyle, especially by my former standards, is a genuine joy b/c I know it's paying for my dream come true!
Remember that these numbers we're looking at are simply averages of how you current tax payments will increase or decrease under two plans. It says nothing about which tax rates people are already paying or how those will change.
Bush cut taxes for everybody, but he made the system more progressive; his cuts benefitted the second lowest quintile of earners most and the middle class second. The rich also benefitted, but their taxes were cut 11% whereas a person making $60,000 a year got roughly a 24% cut (this includes ALL tax changes including estate tax). So now Obama or McCain is going to be adjusting those adjustments; it's not like they're starting with a blank slate here.
The rich already pay vastly more taxes than the poor. So of course when there are tax cuts the rich "benefit more." They get more money back because they put more in to begin with. This is fair, rational, and logical. If a rich person buys a $10,000 rug and a poor person buys a $100 rug and they both get a 10% discount then of course the rich person saves more - but how stupid does it sound for the poor person to complain about that?
Raising tax rates on the rich and slashing them for the poor disincents both groups from being productive, working hard, taking risks, (i.e. start businesses) and trying to make more money. When rich people lose moral about the economy they stop spending, stop building, stop taking business risks, and therefore the government loses tax revenue and the economy shrinks. When poor people do the same, the government's expenses (welfare, tax credits, etc) shoot up. Everybody loses.
If you look at the report, Obama will be raising taxes on all Americans making over $200,000 a year. Doesn't sound like the super rich to me. Indeed this will include small business owners and entrepreneurs who are the life blood to this economy.
By raising taxes, the government will be taking more money out of our checks before we ever get to see it. That is money we will never see again. Is this really acceptable to the hard working American?
Again this does not take into account the health care reform of each candidate. In the case of so called universal health care all americans will be paying for this regardless of income levels. Higher taxes for all.
Well, personally I don't vote because I'm not an American citizen, but I agree that the last 8 years it wasn't the Bush tax cuts that bankrupted America. Obviously a lot of money is being spent on the war, and internally people are just spending a lot of money on their own. I do think that tax cuts are good for the economy, and I don't agree with Obama that we need to help people get out of foreclosure and give them longer unemployment benefits. That does encourage laziness and speculative behavior. I feel that he wants to penalize people who worked pretty hard for their money, and I wrote a post about it here because I think he will win regardless: http://baglady.dreamhosters.com/2008/06/06/more-tax-hikes-ahead/
This is not surprising... what happens to the rest of the population (which is not included in your graph) between the "Middle" and "Rich"? That's nearly 60% of the population the graph does not account for... It's not really fair to compare the tax plans without including the majority of the population.
'To all the people who' is such an absurd post that I am unsure where to begin. First, "trickle down economics" i.e. tax cuts for higher end tax brackets has no effect on bankrupting the nation. Excessive spending bankrupted our nation. You don't overdraft your checking account by earning less money, you do so by spending more than you make. Secondly, in addition to the rich, the higher tax brackets include many small business owners who happen to create a vast amount of jobs.
'Cyclical poverty' is just another way of saying 'failure perpetuate through poor decision making and laziness'. Everyone has the chance to make the decisions necessary to better themselves fiscally. They just CHOOSE to act in ways that prohibit success. The fundamental flaw in your statements lies in a reliance on the system as a tool to lift one's self from poverty when all that is needed is one's self.
You are an idiot and enablers like you are the primary problem with our nation. You drag down this nation like a pair of cement boots.
It's really very hard to prove or disprove trickle-down theory. I know that on a personal level, I give more, spend more, and employ more services when I am more financially stable. And while my savings tends to stay constant, I see trickle down work well in the lives of "common" people around me every day. You can't say that some companies don't employ the same practices. The ones I've worked for, at least, have had more employee events, done more for charity, and generally provided more employment opportunities during their financial upswings. Seems that would be the way most common sense people would do it. Maybe when we don't see it working, it is due more to a sense of insecurity of the future than anything else.
Now that you mention it Nicky, I know people who will give change to friends who have family members in the hospital. The change comes in handy to pay for parking charges, esp. at a time when money and time to get change are in shorter (than usual) supply.
To all the people who continue to talk about this trickle down theory:
We have been trying to do this for about 8 years now and all it has done is bankrupt our country. The rich don't spend money, they save and invest it in stock. They don't create jobs, unless you count crappy low paying jobs without benefits.
also, to the people who are claiming that most poor people are poor because they don't work hard enough, it's called a cyclical poverty. some people can't pull themselves up by their bootstraps, because they weren't lucky enough to be born with said bootstraps. we need to empower people and restructure the system to allow people to get out of poverty, not continue to punish them for being born into poor families.
I live in San Diego, so far I have not found a bank that will take coins; rolled or loose or whether you have an account or not. Washingtom Mutual will take the change but charge you 15-20%. Be thankful for your banks that take it!
Which is better for you: a bigger tax return or a job?
or if you're job-secure, which is better: a bigger tax return or living in a community with low unemployment?
"Raising tax rates on the rich and slashing them for the poor disincents both groups from being productive, working hard, taking risks, (i.e. start businesses) and trying to make more money"
From 1930-1980 the tax rate for high earners was much higher than it is now. During this time America's economic greatness was born. Right now hedge fund managers pay 15% tax on their income; yeah they take risks- on subprime mortgages.
Fast food companies which make millions annually but take no responsibility for the litter created by their packaging annoy the heck out of me.
Coinstar+Amazon Giftcard= empty pockets.
Tax the Rich...HA!
Dad made well more than $50,000 a year from his New Car Dealership when I was a child in the early 60's.
Probably equivalent today to Half a Million. Did he take home more than $50,000...NO.
Why? Because the marginal Tax Bracket then was 50%..WITHOUT Social Security. 50% of his $50,000...$25,000....went to Federal Income Tax.
And if he had taken what he really made out..more than $150,000 he would have been in a 70% tax bracket..the rate then was 70% on ANYTHING over $103,000.
Why work when you're going to lose so much of it to the Government??? Businessmen worked ways around it..and I am NOT ashamed to say my father or any of his kids haven't taken advantage of any loophole we could find.
Thus came about the Three Martini Lunch, Company Car(s), Stock Options, and Week Long Conventions in Vegas....all Non-Cash (or Taxed) ways of paying someone.
And don't tell me Public Officials don't pig at that trough as well.
Here Police Officers get Free or Discounted rent on apartments, Dominos Pizza show your badge (Firemen as well) any Pizza $3 picked up. Usually 50% off at any restaurant. The patrol car and the gas to go with it...oh! did I forget they can use it on their Off Duty Jobs. Florida says they must reimburse the department for $3 per hour for use of the car. And the biggest perk on HUDs website is the Policeman, Fireman, Teacher Next Door program where if you take a Foreclosed house in a not too desireable neighborhood and live in it for two years you get it at HALF PRICE!!
And what does all this have to do with the candidates Tax Positions?? It shows that they are meaningless as ways are ALWAYS found around whatever law is put into place...and its not just "the Rich" who take advantage of it.
~ Roland
At leas at my college, financial aid was awarded no differently than if one was studying domestically. No special grants required. Pell grants were paid to the college, and then were transferred to the foreign program or cash.
"you might actually get further in life."
Curious, you sure that's what you wanted as your parting belief? Sounds like money=getting further in life. I am no bastion of knowledge, but the wealthy I know don't seem any happier, just well fed.
Alot of the the recalled toys from china were for name brand products.
Hey i work at shaws and i have never even heard of this promotion?? sounds like simple minds at work. ( Im in Rhode Island )
Good Lord WiseBread?!?!?!?! When did this blog become a bastion of liberalism? Between the shill for the Democratic party that posted his "analysis" of the candidates' tax plans, and your vitriolic screed against capitalism, one wonders about your own endeavors of monetizing the blog. Are you not profiting on individuals misdeeds, or susceptibility to debt etc? Why not offer the advice for sheer altruistic reasons?
If this is indicative of things to come, I can tell you for sure that this subscription will get nixed soon.
Cut the bullshit, give us some tips on fiscal responsibility and leave the partisan proselytizing to the politicians.
You're right, people like you rarely get rich, and deservedly so. If you worked just 1/4 of the time you spend victimizing yourself or proffering derision, you might actually get further in life.
A quick check of the Leonard Mlodinow page at IMDB.com gives his Star Trek credits as:
Green minds think alike I guess! :)
For decades I couldn't find a dream worth changing my overspending habits for until I finally found out about blogging. I wanted to be a writer someday, but I couldn't figure out how I'd ever get published. Too risky to give up my 6-figure day job! Then, last year I learned about blogging, and suddenly everything clicked into place! I saw how I could get my message out to people all over the world with very little investment -- if only I could stop my mad spending and embrace the polar opposite of the lifestyle I'd grown accustomed to.
I went cold turkey almost overnight when I finally found a dream worth pursuing: spending the rest of my life doing exactly what I love. My heart was on fire for this -- whereas, previously, the only incentive to cut spending and save was early retirement, which never excited me much b/c I thought, "And then what?" Now, living a ridiculously frugal lifestyle, especially by my former standards, is a genuine joy b/c I know it's paying for my dream come true!
Remember that these numbers we're looking at are simply averages of how you current tax payments will increase or decrease under two plans. It says nothing about which tax rates people are already paying or how those will change.
Bush cut taxes for everybody, but he made the system more progressive; his cuts benefitted the second lowest quintile of earners most and the middle class second. The rich also benefitted, but their taxes were cut 11% whereas a person making $60,000 a year got roughly a 24% cut (this includes ALL tax changes including estate tax). So now Obama or McCain is going to be adjusting those adjustments; it's not like they're starting with a blank slate here.
The rich already pay vastly more taxes than the poor. So of course when there are tax cuts the rich "benefit more." They get more money back because they put more in to begin with. This is fair, rational, and logical. If a rich person buys a $10,000 rug and a poor person buys a $100 rug and they both get a 10% discount then of course the rich person saves more - but how stupid does it sound for the poor person to complain about that?
Raising tax rates on the rich and slashing them for the poor disincents both groups from being productive, working hard, taking risks, (i.e. start businesses) and trying to make more money. When rich people lose moral about the economy they stop spending, stop building, stop taking business risks, and therefore the government loses tax revenue and the economy shrinks. When poor people do the same, the government's expenses (welfare, tax credits, etc) shoot up. Everybody loses.
If you look at the report, Obama will be raising taxes on all Americans making over $200,000 a year. Doesn't sound like the super rich to me. Indeed this will include small business owners and entrepreneurs who are the life blood to this economy.
By raising taxes, the government will be taking more money out of our checks before we ever get to see it. That is money we will never see again. Is this really acceptable to the hard working American?
Again this does not take into account the health care reform of each candidate. In the case of so called universal health care all americans will be paying for this regardless of income levels. Higher taxes for all.
Well, personally I don't vote because I'm not an American citizen, but I agree that the last 8 years it wasn't the Bush tax cuts that bankrupted America. Obviously a lot of money is being spent on the war, and internally people are just spending a lot of money on their own. I do think that tax cuts are good for the economy, and I don't agree with Obama that we need to help people get out of foreclosure and give them longer unemployment benefits. That does encourage laziness and speculative behavior. I feel that he wants to penalize people who worked pretty hard for their money, and I wrote a post about it here because I think he will win regardless: http://baglady.dreamhosters.com/2008/06/06/more-tax-hikes-ahead/
This is not surprising... what happens to the rest of the population (which is not included in your graph) between the "Middle" and "Rich"? That's nearly 60% of the population the graph does not account for... It's not really fair to compare the tax plans without including the majority of the population.
'To all the people who' is such an absurd post that I am unsure where to begin. First, "trickle down economics" i.e. tax cuts for higher end tax brackets has no effect on bankrupting the nation. Excessive spending bankrupted our nation. You don't overdraft your checking account by earning less money, you do so by spending more than you make. Secondly, in addition to the rich, the higher tax brackets include many small business owners who happen to create a vast amount of jobs.
'Cyclical poverty' is just another way of saying 'failure perpetuate through poor decision making and laziness'. Everyone has the chance to make the decisions necessary to better themselves fiscally. They just CHOOSE to act in ways that prohibit success. The fundamental flaw in your statements lies in a reliance on the system as a tool to lift one's self from poverty when all that is needed is one's self.
You are an idiot and enablers like you are the primary problem with our nation. You drag down this nation like a pair of cement boots.
It's really very hard to prove or disprove trickle-down theory. I know that on a personal level, I give more, spend more, and employ more services when I am more financially stable. And while my savings tends to stay constant, I see trickle down work well in the lives of "common" people around me every day. You can't say that some companies don't employ the same practices. The ones I've worked for, at least, have had more employee events, done more for charity, and generally provided more employment opportunities during their financial upswings. Seems that would be the way most common sense people would do it. Maybe when we don't see it working, it is due more to a sense of insecurity of the future than anything else.
Now that you mention it Nicky, I know people who will give change to friends who have family members in the hospital. The change comes in handy to pay for parking charges, esp. at a time when money and time to get change are in shorter (than usual) supply.
To all the people who continue to talk about this trickle down theory:
We have been trying to do this for about 8 years now and all it has done is bankrupt our country. The rich don't spend money, they save and invest it in stock. They don't create jobs, unless you count crappy low paying jobs without benefits.
also, to the people who are claiming that most poor people are poor because they don't work hard enough, it's called a cyclical poverty. some people can't pull themselves up by their bootstraps, because they weren't lucky enough to be born with said bootstraps. we need to empower people and restructure the system to allow people to get out of poverty, not continue to punish them for being born into poor families.
Sounds like a fascinating book, and I'd love to know which episodes of STNG he wrote as well.
I live in San Diego, so far I have not found a bank that will take coins; rolled or loose or whether you have an account or not. Washingtom Mutual will take the change but charge you 15-20%. Be thankful for your banks that take it!
a good job is way better than a bigger tax return. Can you guarantee that larger tax cuts for the rich will result in more jobs? If so, sure.
Which is better for you: a bigger tax return or a job?
or if you're job-secure, which is better: a bigger tax return or living in a community with low unemployment?
Here is a great video that outlines some of Obamas wonderful tax plans:
http://www.wrevenue.com/2008/05/18/obama-clueless-on-taxation-and-entrep...
If that is true it could harm more than you realize.