There is a product called True Lemon which is crystallized lemon sold in packets. It tastes pretty decent too. So this could be a substitute if you're especially concerned about restaurant lemons. However, I'd avoid it if possible, due to the obvious environmental impact of introducing extra packaging. Just want to let you know it is an option.
I found the comment about the energy cost of producing styrofoam versus a ceramic cup noteworthy. Some things that seem like "solutions" are just a different form of the same problem. Could the Prius also be an environmental problem in that respect? I've wondered that before. I have an answer, though, that doesn't require you to be a chemical engineer and do hard science. Just consider the personal cost (at least for this exercise). How much does the styrofoam cost? It costs you 10 to 25 cents more a cup. Most cafes in my area give you a discount for bringing your own mug. I assume it saves them money too--they're not just being nice. They have to buy those cups and pay a garbage bill, you know. How much does the ceramic cup cost? $7-$20 dollars, probably, right? Let's just take the big figure, $20. You will have paid for it over 200 cups of coffee if you just get a 10 cent discount, and over 80 days if you get a quarter discount. In well under a year, you pay for that cup if you're a regular coffee drinker. I have been using my own mugs for years. They break, like that chemical person up there said they do. Yet, they tend to last years, so I think they pay for themsleves.. I carry one in a towel and wash it every few days. It's no real bother. Use your imagination, now, and get a little less personal, and consider how few ceramic mugs are in the landfill, and how few there would be if everyone used them instead of styrofoam. Landfills require space, you know. Our big problem isn't just cups, it's general throw-away consumerism. The coffee cup is just an example. You save. The stores save. The earth has more space. Less ugly trash to look at (much of it tends to wind up on the street, you know). So, bring your own cup.
Oh, yes, the health issue. All those germs. How terrible. Yet you kiss people and dogs, touch everything, and still stick your fingers in your mouth to bite those nails. Yes, try to avoid being too dirty, but don't over-do clean either. We can't serilize the world, and we don't need to. You know when dirty crosses the line. Don't cross it.
Religion. Yes, environmentalism is a religion. So is everything else. I notice most people's religion is to worship their big cars and pour out libations into their mouths with styrofoam, but I see problems with their doctrine. To keep from muddying up issues with red herrings like the word "religion" brings to mind (you know, being all woo-woo spiritual, preachy, and such), let's just say there are facts, and there are opinions. The facts do seem to indicate that we are using up the world to fill our never-ending need to consume. It's my opinion that we should consume a little more responsibly. Why isn't it yours?
Do you want a ceramic cup? I've got nifty ones with tired bunnies and suns. Just go to what I listed as a homepage, which my name links to.
While I'm sure all these online solutions are great, I couldn't live without my Palm Zire. I have a calendar, which I use to mark events, birthdays (which I'm horrible at remembering), holidays and days off.
There are memos, which I use for all kinds of lists...groceries, "wants", various account information (which is password protected), financial goals and all other kind of information I used to keep on paper lists (which, a lot of times, got washed in my pants pockets).
What I love best are my "To Do" lists. I use to for my daily goals, tasks and errands. It gives a great sense of accomplishment once everything is done off of that day's list.
I HIGHLY recommend a Palm to anyone who wants to stay organized and disciplined! (Zires can be had really cheap too!)
For many, many years my own attitude prevented me from even envisioning a future that included financial independence! How I wish I had figured it out at your age (I'm 38 now, and just starting the journey to financial security).
I think at this point in my life, my mortgage is definitely something I need to look at as far as taking a chunk of money I could be using to increase my savings and investments. I just don't know yet if it would be best to sell and then rent, sell and buy an even tinier place (with a smaller mortgage), or stick it out until the market improves. That's my conundrum now.
I can relate to the blank stares that you get when you talk about wanting to retire early (and, retiring, to me, doesn't necessarily mean not working at all, just working because you want to, not because you need to). My family thinks I'm nuts. Granted, it will be a long, hard road, but I think it's doable, and I get my inspiration from people like you and the other commenters, who also realize that it won't be easy but it can be done!
"I'm not sure of the exact amount, but I'm pretty confident that Denmark spends next to nothing on national defense. Why? Because the United States, through NATO, is protecting Denmark's borders."
From Germany and Norway and Poland.... how have they not been overrun already? Everyone knows that all the EU nations are at each other's throats now....
Proud to say that I'm recovering from my book-buying addiction. Starting in high school...basically as soon as I had disposable income... I'd go to Borders or Barnes&Noble and spent $20,$30 a trip. Then in college, I'd hit Half Price Books or Hastings, telling myself I was getting great deals.
Thanks to sites like these, I'm rediscovering the joy and selection of the local library and my friends' collections. I've found some free space on my book shelves, and I'm a lot more discriminating about which books come into my house - namely only those that I'll actually reread.
My "back-to-school clothing" hitch is probably restaurants. I love exotic, exciting, rich foods!
I was kinda surprised to see that Xin Lu was the author of this (BTW, I really enjoy reading your articles).
I can retire now but haven't. The reasoning isn't because I love my job (I like it) but I think there are 3 areas that need to be contemplated.
Money: For some, the opportunity to gather more wealth is too great an attraction and they will work as long as they can to pad their nest egg. For others, the amount needed to live off a 4% return is staggering. I think most realize that there is a trade off and when they are at a comfortable place, they retire. Some are able to estimate a "critical mass" number and retire the day they hit that number. One of the benefits to living frugally is that it lowers this number quite a bit.
Medical: In some ways related to the above topic but medical coverage for you and your family is another reason to work. You can buy your own coverage but it can be a hefty expense. In my case, a few years will result in a lifelong medical benefit (til 65 when Medicare kicks in). Unfortunately, this benefit is disappearing in many companies and isn't guaranteed in those where it is still offered.
Mind: What are you going to do that gives your life a sense of purpose and meaning. I haven't really figured this one out at all yet. Some people are content to do activities they love, some volunteer, some return to education... I'm still working on this one and hope that in the final 3 years of so that I have left in my career, I find the answer.
I agree with Philip in that the idea of retirement in itself is not that appealing. However, the idea of having more freedom or more flexibilty to either work where we want or when we want so that we could travel more freely and more often, is very appealing. This couples with our desire to spend more time with family as a large part of our family live overseas. I also agree with the fact that healthcare is a huge obstacle in making this happen. The concept of healthcare being tied to your job limits your options and impacts decisions in so many ways.
Really interesting replies. Encouraging to hear positive people with positive thoughts... and fascinating to hear such a wide range of feelings about retirement.
Am just entering year 19 of a very happy retirement that started at age 53.
For my own part, retirement is a balance of being "free", and having to be somewhat... no.... a lot frugal.
I'm mostly in agreement with Zin Lu's observations... Looking back, almost all of the points played a part in my decision to retire, and ability to stay retired.
On of the most interesting points was the cost of having children... While I wouldn't change it for the world, having four children was a major expense... (I figure about $250,000 each in today's $$$).
The only caveat about early retirement, is the possibility of an upsetting major life event... health, wealth, or life altering. With a basically stable economy since retiring in '89, the financial status has been surprisingly predictable, and the early planning is pretty much on schedule in a "macro" fashion.... though not exactly according to plan. One can plan for "some" unexpected events, but that planning should be substantial.
Retirement early years are easy, since the ability to go back to work is there as a cushion. As one ages, the inclination and ability to physically handle work (even mental work) seems to lessen.
A last thought about Financial Planning. I believe that many would-be retirees are put off, by the financial planning formulas that exist everywhere. All that I have seen project income needs and expenses on the basis that the basic capital (nest egg) should be preserved, and that one should leave that intact, and live off the income. In order to have done that, I would have had to work an additional 7 years. Certainly an individual matter, but a plan that "spends down" capital should be considered.
By the way... my own planning was not on a wish and a promise, but resulted from many, many spread sheets, and included highly detailed budgets, expected costs. inflation, and income projections. As we went along the retirement path, the planning gave a framework for guaging our progress, and helped in making any necessary adjustments.
I think when people say "retirement", they mean "freedom to choose how to spend their time". And that freedom to choose comes from having money; and having money comes from making choices about how one lives.
I never intended to get deep into a discussion of raw vs. cooked vs. commercial, but it is an interesting topic. My main point was to just give those who are considering or already making their own cooked dog food a "hack" to do it better and faster with less mess. Thanks for all the comments!
Raw vs. cooked is a matter of preference. A lot of people are worried about food poisoning with raw foods, but dogs have a higher stomach acidity and don't suffer from salmonella and other infections that can be deadly in humans, and this was born out by our experience. There are people feeding their chihuahuas raw meat/bones diets! But cooked can be just as good. The important thing is to make sure you've got enough bone or bone meal. In order to get the right balance, it should look as though you are feeding them mostly bones. You can also weigh the bones and meat to make sure you have the right ratio. A small but nonzero risk of raw bones and meat diets is an intestinal perforation. It's very are, but it can happen. I think it's worth the risk for the other health benefits, but some people wouldn't agree.
I think it's great that people are looking beyond commercial dog foods. For small, medium, or even normal large dogs, often times the cost is not very much. I found that for my guys (combined weight 250 pounds), even $.79/pound was too much, and I was literaly cleaning out the meat case in order to buy enough for one week. Our costs went way down when we switched back to kibble, alas. If I had more time to seek out sources of free meats like game processors, etc., and if I had a place to store all that meat, I would love to go back to a home made diet, but it's not practical for us right now.
Retirement, in the sense that most people use that word, requires a huge amount of capital--so much that it's very difficult to accumulate while you're young, even if you're well-paid and live frugally.
But I don't think "retirement" is really such a hot goal. What most people want, if you talk to them in some detail, is less drastic than that:
They want to quit a job they hate.
They want to have a schedule that lets them spend more time with their family.
They want to have a schedule that lets them travel.
They want to be free to do work that interests them, even if it doesn't pay well.
That sort of "retirement" is much easier to come by than the regular sort. In fact, if it weren't for the way health insurance works in this country, it would be easily within the grasp of any person who lives frugally.
I was shocked when I saw a picture of puppies tearing at a chicken leg on our dog board. I asked a little about it, researched a bit, and we're going raw with our dogs after we run out of kibble.
We have been purchasing organic, high-end kibble and the occasional canned food, and we calculated that feeding raw will actually be cheaper. I had always assumed a raw diet would consist of (expensive) beef, but I was surprised to find that most people feed their dogs raw chicken legs (yes, including bones) as the bulk of their diet, then throw in veggies, occasional whole grains, and cold-pressed oil. I can get chicken legs for .70 per pound on sale, sometimes even less, and the veggies will be scraps and whatever is left over from dinner (excluding onions etc as specified above).
People who scoff at this should realize that kibble was not always in existence. What did people feed their dogs before kibble? Think about it.
Also, our puppy often has impacted anal glands and according to our vet, feeding dogs bones and raw meats often prevents this problem naturally, which is great.
I plan on thawing out meat for both our dinner and the dogs dinner at the same time. Let's face it, it doesn't take more time to throw a chicken leg and some veggies in a bowl than it does to pour in some kibble.
As one who missed the 60 Minutes piece, I really appreciate this post, Philip. And, as a half-Dane, I guess I should be at least half-happy, right? I love the comments about taxes, consumerism and social networks, too. BTW, I linked to the post on my blog. Thanks for sharing.
I live in France and I have to say being a freelance here is quite a challenge...
I don't know if some of you are aware of this but a french employee has a big part of his or her salary going to the State in order to finance his or her retirement and social security.
Being self-employed means putting money aside yourself and for French people, that's scary!
Anyway, good luck all of you, I think being a freelance is really cool and I hope I'll be able to become one myself in the future, after my studies.
I live in France and I have to say being a freelance here is quite a challenge...
I don't know if some of you are aware of this but a french employee has a big part of his or her salary going to the State in order to finance his or her retirement and social security.
Being self-employed means putting money aside yourself and for French people, that's scary!
Anyway, good luck all of you, I think being a freelance is really cool and I hope I'll be able to become one myself in the future, after my studies.
i retired at 37. that was 2 years ago. all i've ever been was a bartender. i have no savings and yet i am not worried about my future. i have great cash flow. right now it's decent, but in a few years, it will be fantastic. i get paid every month for doing nothing, i just played my cards right. not bad for being comletely smashed every night in my 20's. i didn't even get serious until i hit 30. i must mention this...i made it AND i didn't steal from my job.
There is a product called True Lemon which is crystallized lemon sold in packets. It tastes pretty decent too. So this could be a substitute if you're especially concerned about restaurant lemons. However, I'd avoid it if possible, due to the obvious environmental impact of introducing extra packaging. Just want to let you know it is an option.
I think there is absolutely a post there on ideas for a staple gun. I'm looking forward to your post on the subject.
I found the comment about the energy cost of producing styrofoam versus a ceramic cup noteworthy. Some things that seem like "solutions" are just a different form of the same problem. Could the Prius also be an environmental problem in that respect? I've wondered that before. I have an answer, though, that doesn't require you to be a chemical engineer and do hard science. Just consider the personal cost (at least for this exercise). How much does the styrofoam cost? It costs you 10 to 25 cents more a cup. Most cafes in my area give you a discount for bringing your own mug. I assume it saves them money too--they're not just being nice. They have to buy those cups and pay a garbage bill, you know. How much does the ceramic cup cost? $7-$20 dollars, probably, right? Let's just take the big figure, $20. You will have paid for it over 200 cups of coffee if you just get a 10 cent discount, and over 80 days if you get a quarter discount. In well under a year, you pay for that cup if you're a regular coffee drinker. I have been using my own mugs for years. They break, like that chemical person up there said they do. Yet, they tend to last years, so I think they pay for themsleves.. I carry one in a towel and wash it every few days. It's no real bother. Use your imagination, now, and get a little less personal, and consider how few ceramic mugs are in the landfill, and how few there would be if everyone used them instead of styrofoam. Landfills require space, you know. Our big problem isn't just cups, it's general throw-away consumerism. The coffee cup is just an example. You save. The stores save. The earth has more space. Less ugly trash to look at (much of it tends to wind up on the street, you know). So, bring your own cup.
Oh, yes, the health issue. All those germs. How terrible. Yet you kiss people and dogs, touch everything, and still stick your fingers in your mouth to bite those nails. Yes, try to avoid being too dirty, but don't over-do clean either. We can't serilize the world, and we don't need to. You know when dirty crosses the line. Don't cross it.
Religion. Yes, environmentalism is a religion. So is everything else. I notice most people's religion is to worship their big cars and pour out libations into their mouths with styrofoam, but I see problems with their doctrine. To keep from muddying up issues with red herrings like the word "religion" brings to mind (you know, being all woo-woo spiritual, preachy, and such), let's just say there are facts, and there are opinions. The facts do seem to indicate that we are using up the world to fill our never-ending need to consume. It's my opinion that we should consume a little more responsibly. Why isn't it yours?
Do you want a ceramic cup? I've got nifty ones with tired bunnies and suns. Just go to what I listed as a homepage, which my name links to.
They're one of the most useful things I've seen...so many great things you can do...hey, maybe there's a post there!
Thanks, Myscha.
While I'm sure all these online solutions are great, I couldn't live without my Palm Zire. I have a calendar, which I use to mark events, birthdays (which I'm horrible at remembering), holidays and days off.
There are memos, which I use for all kinds of lists...groceries, "wants", various account information (which is password protected), financial goals and all other kind of information I used to keep on paper lists (which, a lot of times, got washed in my pants pockets).
What I love best are my "To Do" lists. I use to for my daily goals, tasks and errands. It gives a great sense of accomplishment once everything is done off of that day's list.
I HIGHLY recommend a Palm to anyone who wants to stay organized and disciplined! (Zires can be had really cheap too!)
And specifically, amen to the following points:
1. A little discomfort causing exponentially more stress.
2. The ease and wow factor of staple gun chair cushion recovering.
I love affordable decorating ideas.
Thanks for the post.
Hi Xin Lu,
For many, many years my own attitude prevented me from even envisioning a future that included financial independence! How I wish I had figured it out at your age (I'm 38 now, and just starting the journey to financial security).
I think at this point in my life, my mortgage is definitely something I need to look at as far as taking a chunk of money I could be using to increase my savings and investments. I just don't know yet if it would be best to sell and then rent, sell and buy an even tinier place (with a smaller mortgage), or stick it out until the market improves. That's my conundrum now.
I can relate to the blank stares that you get when you talk about wanting to retire early (and, retiring, to me, doesn't necessarily mean not working at all, just working because you want to, not because you need to). My family thinks I'm nuts. Granted, it will be a long, hard road, but I think it's doable, and I get my inspiration from people like you and the other commenters, who also realize that it won't be easy but it can be done!
Thanks for your post!
"I'm not sure of the exact amount, but I'm pretty confident that Denmark spends next to nothing on national defense. Why? Because the United States, through NATO, is protecting Denmark's borders."
From Germany and Norway and Poland.... how have they not been overrun already? Everyone knows that all the EU nations are at each other's throats now....
Proud to say that I'm recovering from my book-buying addiction. Starting in high school...basically as soon as I had disposable income... I'd go to Borders or Barnes&Noble and spent $20,$30 a trip. Then in college, I'd hit Half Price Books or Hastings, telling myself I was getting great deals.
Thanks to sites like these, I'm rediscovering the joy and selection of the local library and my friends' collections. I've found some free space on my book shelves, and I'm a lot more discriminating about which books come into my house - namely only those that I'll actually reread.
My "back-to-school clothing" hitch is probably restaurants. I love exotic, exciting, rich foods!
My gross income was $3,584 will I get $600?
I was kinda surprised to see that Xin Lu was the author of this (BTW, I really enjoy reading your articles).
I can retire now but haven't. The reasoning isn't because I love my job (I like it) but I think there are 3 areas that need to be contemplated.
Money: For some, the opportunity to gather more wealth is too great an attraction and they will work as long as they can to pad their nest egg. For others, the amount needed to live off a 4% return is staggering. I think most realize that there is a trade off and when they are at a comfortable place, they retire. Some are able to estimate a "critical mass" number and retire the day they hit that number. One of the benefits to living frugally is that it lowers this number quite a bit.
Medical: In some ways related to the above topic but medical coverage for you and your family is another reason to work. You can buy your own coverage but it can be a hefty expense. In my case, a few years will result in a lifelong medical benefit (til 65 when Medicare kicks in). Unfortunately, this benefit is disappearing in many companies and isn't guaranteed in those where it is still offered.
Mind: What are you going to do that gives your life a sense of purpose and meaning. I haven't really figured this one out at all yet. Some people are content to do activities they love, some volunteer, some return to education... I'm still working on this one and hope that in the final 3 years of so that I have left in my career, I find the answer.
I agree with Philip in that the idea of retirement in itself is not that appealing. However, the idea of having more freedom or more flexibilty to either work where we want or when we want so that we could travel more freely and more often, is very appealing. This couples with our desire to spend more time with family as a large part of our family live overseas. I also agree with the fact that healthcare is a huge obstacle in making this happen. The concept of healthcare being tied to your job limits your options and impacts decisions in so many ways.
Really interesting replies. Encouraging to hear positive people with positive thoughts... and fascinating to hear such a wide range of feelings about retirement.
Am just entering year 19 of a very happy retirement that started at age 53.
For my own part, retirement is a balance of being "free", and having to be somewhat... no.... a lot frugal.
I'm mostly in agreement with Zin Lu's observations... Looking back, almost all of the points played a part in my decision to retire, and ability to stay retired.
On of the most interesting points was the cost of having children... While I wouldn't change it for the world, having four children was a major expense... (I figure about $250,000 each in today's $$$).
The only caveat about early retirement, is the possibility of an upsetting major life event... health, wealth, or life altering. With a basically stable economy since retiring in '89, the financial status has been surprisingly predictable, and the early planning is pretty much on schedule in a "macro" fashion.... though not exactly according to plan. One can plan for "some" unexpected events, but that planning should be substantial.
Retirement early years are easy, since the ability to go back to work is there as a cushion. As one ages, the inclination and ability to physically handle work (even mental work) seems to lessen.
A last thought about Financial Planning. I believe that many would-be retirees are put off, by the financial planning formulas that exist everywhere. All that I have seen project income needs and expenses on the basis that the basic capital (nest egg) should be preserved, and that one should leave that intact, and live off the income. In order to have done that, I would have had to work an additional 7 years. Certainly an individual matter, but a plan that "spends down" capital should be considered.
By the way... my own planning was not on a wish and a promise, but resulted from many, many spread sheets, and included highly detailed budgets, expected costs. inflation, and income projections. As we went along the retirement path, the planning gave a framework for guaging our progress, and helped in making any necessary adjustments.
Advice? Go for it!
my opinion only
I think when people say "retirement", they mean "freedom to choose how to spend their time". And that freedom to choose comes from having money; and having money comes from making choices about how one lives.
very smart design. the video totally fascinated me.
I never intended to get deep into a discussion of raw vs. cooked vs. commercial, but it is an interesting topic. My main point was to just give those who are considering or already making their own cooked dog food a "hack" to do it better and faster with less mess. Thanks for all the comments!
very smart design. the video totally fascinated me.
Raw vs. cooked is a matter of preference. A lot of people are worried about food poisoning with raw foods, but dogs have a higher stomach acidity and don't suffer from salmonella and other infections that can be deadly in humans, and this was born out by our experience. There are people feeding their chihuahuas raw meat/bones diets! But cooked can be just as good. The important thing is to make sure you've got enough bone or bone meal. In order to get the right balance, it should look as though you are feeding them mostly bones. You can also weigh the bones and meat to make sure you have the right ratio. A small but nonzero risk of raw bones and meat diets is an intestinal perforation. It's very are, but it can happen. I think it's worth the risk for the other health benefits, but some people wouldn't agree.
I think it's great that people are looking beyond commercial dog foods. For small, medium, or even normal large dogs, often times the cost is not very much. I found that for my guys (combined weight 250 pounds), even $.79/pound was too much, and I was literaly cleaning out the meat case in order to buy enough for one week. Our costs went way down when we switched back to kibble, alas. If I had more time to seek out sources of free meats like game processors, etc., and if I had a place to store all that meat, I would love to go back to a home made diet, but it's not practical for us right now.
Catherine Shaffer
Wise Bread Contributor
Retirement, in the sense that most people use that word, requires a huge amount of capital--so much that it's very difficult to accumulate while you're young, even if you're well-paid and live frugally.
But I don't think "retirement" is really such a hot goal. What most people want, if you talk to them in some detail, is less drastic than that:
That sort of "retirement" is much easier to come by than the regular sort. In fact, if it weren't for the way health insurance works in this country, it would be easily within the grasp of any person who lives frugally.
I was shocked when I saw a picture of puppies tearing at a chicken leg on our dog board. I asked a little about it, researched a bit, and we're going raw with our dogs after we run out of kibble.
We have been purchasing organic, high-end kibble and the occasional canned food, and we calculated that feeding raw will actually be cheaper. I had always assumed a raw diet would consist of (expensive) beef, but I was surprised to find that most people feed their dogs raw chicken legs (yes, including bones) as the bulk of their diet, then throw in veggies, occasional whole grains, and cold-pressed oil. I can get chicken legs for .70 per pound on sale, sometimes even less, and the veggies will be scraps and whatever is left over from dinner (excluding onions etc as specified above).
People who scoff at this should realize that kibble was not always in existence. What did people feed their dogs before kibble? Think about it.
Also, our puppy often has impacted anal glands and according to our vet, feeding dogs bones and raw meats often prevents this problem naturally, which is great.
I plan on thawing out meat for both our dinner and the dogs dinner at the same time. Let's face it, it doesn't take more time to throw a chicken leg and some veggies in a bowl than it does to pour in some kibble.
Thank you!!! How eye opening.
As one who missed the 60 Minutes piece, I really appreciate this post, Philip. And, as a half-Dane, I guess I should be at least half-happy, right? I love the comments about taxes, consumerism and social networks, too. BTW, I linked to the post on my blog. Thanks for sharing.
hi all,
I live in France and I have to say being a freelance here is quite a challenge...
I don't know if some of you are aware of this but a french employee has a big part of his or her salary going to the State in order to finance his or her retirement and social security.
Being self-employed means putting money aside yourself and for French people, that's scary!
Anyway, good luck all of you, I think being a freelance is really cool and I hope I'll be able to become one myself in the future, after my studies.
Bye for now
hi all,
I live in France and I have to say being a freelance here is quite a challenge...
I don't know if some of you are aware of this but a french employee has a big part of his or her salary going to the State in order to finance his or her retirement and social security.
Being self-employed means putting money aside yourself and for French people, that's scary!
Anyway, good luck all of you, I think being a freelance is really cool and I hope I'll be able to become one myself in the future, after my studies.
Bye for now
i retired at 37. that was 2 years ago. all i've ever been was a bartender. i have no savings and yet i am not worried about my future. i have great cash flow. right now it's decent, but in a few years, it will be fantastic. i get paid every month for doing nothing, i just played my cards right. not bad for being comletely smashed every night in my 20's. i didn't even get serious until i hit 30. i must mention this...i made it AND i didn't steal from my job.