Since you can't know the future, any plan you make will eventually have to adapt to reality--that's true enough. But "The ONLY correct answer is 'as much as you can get,'" isn't useful advice.
It may be that no retirement will be secure in the future--I'll see your list of things you can't control and raise you a peak oil and a climate change. But then your advice shouldn't be "as much as you can get," but rather, "stay flexible and don't expect the same solution to work every time."
I think the risks you list actually support the notion of retiring early. Of course, it needs to be a retirement where you put your time and energy into keeping current and developing new skills. But at some point (and I think that point is when your investment portfolio equals your annual spending divided by 0.04), you're better served by putting further efforts into finding competely different ways to meet your needs, than by just sticking with plan A enough longer that your investment portfolio doubles (or quadruples).
My husband and I regularly talk and dream together about our current financial goals. (First it was getting rid of credit card debt, now it is saving for a down payment on a house) This REALLY avoids the temptation to overspend individually, because we have goals that we set together that we're both are highly- motivated to reach. We're on the same team, and our individual behaviors reflect that.
That said, if I want to go out to eat more with co-workers, or he wants new workout clothes, we look at the budget to see how that could be fit (and balanced) into the overall plan.
To sum up- work together to set and work toward the same financial goals.
While I'm single now, I've faced a similar situation when living with a long-term boyfriend, and we hit the same problem about resentment.
My question to you is how often you will be reviewing how well each of you stick to this agreement? Once a month? Every 3 months? Reviewing at all?
Everyone likes to think they can change once they make the decision to do so, but more often than not, it takes time and effort (and some slip-ups) to make it happen. What happens when you find out his eTopps budget is going beyond what is "allowed", or vice-versa on your iTunes purchases? What's then?
*I hope none of this sounds like a challenge--just curious to see how other people work this stuff out!
How much do you need for retirement? The ONLY correct answer is "as much as you can get". Spending down 4-5%? If you talked to a financial planner in 1998 or 1999 they would have told you 7-8%. You CANNOT predict the future. Any assumptions used (taxes, inflation, interest rates, etc) will all be wrong. I can guarantee you that. There is NO financial plan that has EVER worked out in real life. They look great on paper but money is not math and math is not money.
Instead of focusing on things you can't control (taxes, inflation, rates of return, technological change, planned obsolescence, creditors, lawsuits, the government changing the rules of your retirement plan) why don't you focus on what you CAN control: internal efficiency. If you are as effective and efficient as possible with your money, have no over payments of taxes, no product overlap, no unnecessary costs or fees, and have maximum protection so that you never go backwards at any point in time...isn't that really all you can do?
By looking at everything from a macro-economic perspective you can have more money that any arbitrary goal or need. Then you can cover that need and have extra left over.
There is a huge difference between INvesting and DISinvesting.
I'm in agreement with the other posters who recommended that each person have personal funds which they can spend as wished. My husband and I use that system, and it works well for us. There are also joint funds which are spent only according to mutual agreement.
Of course, to get to this point couples have to be able to sit down and realistically discuss their goals and expenses. They also have to be ethical enough to not "rob" the joint account when they've used up their personal funds.
My husband and I also agreed on an amount each month for each of us to spend, no questions asked. Each of us has things we like that the other doesn't and a different idea of what is useful or valuable-he likes hockey games, I like shoes. Generally speaking, he doesn't like to deal with money. So we keep things simple, such as having a food budget and an agreement to discuss any big items or non-budget items before purchase. So far, so good.
I have another suggestion, which is instead of depending on just honesty (stuff eventually/still gets low-balled or sneaked into the house - then the issue of honesty in the marriage itself is challenged), designate a certain amount of money each person is allowed to spend on 'secret' stuff. They can buy on their own and are trusted to not go over their budget, but don't have to 'confess' each time it happens...
I was given a swiffer wet jet and used it on my floors. A strong chemical smell wafted up to me. I looked at the carton to figure out how I was to rinse the chemicals...and you're supposed to leave that toxic stew laying all over your floors! I have dogs and kids who are often on the floor and to me that isn't acceptable. Same with the Clorox coutner wipes. I'd rather ingest a little chicken juice than have my counters covered in a thin layer of chemicals.
I use mostly Dr. Bronners soaps and dishrags to do all my floors and counters these days.
Thought provoking post, Marcia. I'm sure you'll get a fair amount of discussion on this piece. In our house, we are very honest about money. That being said, I think it's because we are very much in agreement regarding the various issues surrounding it.
Also, now that things are flowing a little easier financially, it's way easier. We don't live extravagently, don't get me wrong. But there's a tad more wiggle room which allows us to sort of let each other have a bit of a "lead" so to speak. I'll be interested to see how this unfolds. I predict a fair amount of discussion on this post.
Consumer Reports tests verify that A/C typically costs you 1 mpg in gas mileage at a speed of 65 mph; opening windows costs even less. (Obviously, it's even better if you can just dress for the conditions, though.)
And it increases each year for inflation too. Part of his retirement package also includes health insurance for both of us. So we're fortunate there. It still needs to be seriously supplemented, though, both on the pension and insurance fronts. Still, we're grateful for the stability.
Yeah, I should have thought to mention that pensions are still common for people who work for governments: the military, school teachers, public service workers of all kinds, government officials, etc.
A pension, even a small pension, is a great stablizer of post-retirement income. Highly recommended for those who can arrange one.
Those sponges that are yellow with a green, scraggly side for scrubbing? I use those instead of cloth wipes. I don't have a washer / dryer in my place, so laundry doesn't get done often enough for me to feel comfortable using cloths, even with Lysol.
the sponges, on the other hand, can be used over and over again. And when they get bacteria built-up in them (evidenced by that awful smell they give off), get them wet and soapy, and nuke them in the microwave for 30 seconds. It kills something like 99% of the bacteria in them.
Granted, I don't know how biodegradable(?) they are, but for only having to buy them on occasion, they sure are a frugal option for me.
I am sorry to hear about this. I'm in a very similar situation with my mother, only she doesn't seem to have Alzheimers to the best of my knowledge. She, as your grandmother was, is so convinced she will win one of these lotteries or Publisher Clearing house offers, and has been for many, many years. After all, the psychics she periodically pays for readings are always telling her she'll be rich soon (the fact that they've been telling her the same vague crap for twenty years or more hasn't deterred her yet). A few years back she got scammed by the "you've won 2 million US dollars in the Spanish lottery" scam, where you have to send them a couple hundred to cover the "administrative" costs. Once they hook you, they don't let go. They keep calling asking for account numbers to deposit the check to and additional adminstrative cost money to cover snags. It took me and my brother and a person at the bank to convince my mother they weren't legitamite. Even then she questioned it until we got her to file a police report and they told her it was a well known scam. When my mother informed the scammer on the phone that she'd gone to the police and he shouldn't call back or he'd be in trouble, he laughed before he hung up. Fortunately they got less than a $1000 out of her, but this is the only one we know about. When I collected her mail while visiting over the holidays, there must have been twenty envelopes, and all but two were BS "you've already won" type envelopes or requests from charities for money. Given the volume, I have to wonder which ones I've missed and how much she's spent. I can only hope I've learned, and taught my children, better, and don't find myself doing this as I hit my late seventies.
"For dozens - even hundreds - of years we did it the simple way and nobody keeled over because of it." Actually, the biggest health improvement over the last couple of centuries is due to cleaning. Clean water, people washing their hands, and health providers washing their hands and instruments have made a big difference. But of course this can be done with ordinary soap, baking soda, vinegar, etc.
As for chicken, I don't put it the counters: I put it on cutting boards and whatever other dishes I'm using to process the chicken (bowls with egg or bread crumbs, pans, etc.). These can all go in the dishwasher.
Don't worry, I won't report anyone for being an eco-sinner. But just my two cents to several conversational points.
I too got sick of the waste of the Swiffer. But I love how compact it is and how I can get under so many areas. I found at he 99 Cents Only store in Tucson that I could get a whole pack of the microfiber Swiffer-style cloths for you guessed it, 99 cents. I just wash them out with the rest of my cleaning cloths.
The chicken goop thing. You know Thursday, chicken juice creeps me out too. I use a system similar to what Linsey was suggesting and make sure that once I wipe up chicken juice with something, it goes in the wash to be sanitized.
Cloth napkins - well, probably now is not the time to ask me since everything I have is in storage and we are sharing a face cloth at the counter every night instead, but I found the food stain thing to be annoying before our stuff was shipped too. If I am using fancy light colored ones, I try not to serve anything that would leave an obnoxious stain. While I previously just dealt with the stains on my thrift store purchased ones for a dime a piece, I'm planning on just going with darker colored bandanas when we get more settled. For every day use that is. When I did the bandana post, I noticed how cheap they were by the case. So I'm looking forward to trying it.
I do keep generic baby wipes in our bathroom because until we build the new house there's no bidet or hose in this cottage. We both like having access to one or the other, and it does promote less paper usage. Probably TMI, but I thought I'd chime in.
Oh and P.S. to Linsey . . . I am SOOOOOO with you on wanting a functioning dryer back in my life. Good grief what a pain. I don't mind hanging certain things out as a rule, but some stuff is way easier when you have a dryer. And of course, since we live on a lake, it is often damper which really complicates the solar and stove drying experience.
Sorry, the chicken juice issue doesn't work for me. What did we do before we had paper towels and disposable wipes? Cleaned it up with anything handy! I just do a 'rag' wash - if the cleaning rags are particularly icky - say, I had a massive chicken juice spill :-) - I use hot water, detergent, and maybe Oxiclean (I avoid bleach, if I can). Hot water and soap go a long way for most things. :-)
A great way to provide the Fun Factor for reusable cleaning supplies is to knit your washcloths, dishcloths, rags, etc., using bright-colored yarns and fun patterns. You can get a ball of cotton at a craft store for $1.27 that will make two decent-sized rags or one large one, and there are free patterns all over the web. When they get dirty, they can go in the wash like any other cotton cloth, and they hold up really well. =)
I feel this is a good time to mention a book I've seen that will help with this very problem - Clean: The Humble Art of Zen-Cleansing by Michael De Jong. I've only flipped through it, but it seems to be a rather exhaustive recipe book for cleaning your home using only five products: Baking Soda, Borax, Lemon, Salt and White Vinegar. It could be a good step towards this goal of reducing 'clean waste!'
You forgot to mention the abomination of waste that is the swiffer!
I can't imagine throwing all of those sheets away and buying again and again expensive boxes of wipes. We bought a microfiber dust mop at Target that has a removable head that goes in the wash. We also found a big pack of large sized microfiber dusting cloths in the auto section of Target for $7. Between these two and an electrostatic duster I see no point in products like swiffer other than to waste money and fill up your trash.
We have been trying to cut down on paper towel consumption. I only use them to clean if it is really greasy or really gross (like the dog messes) or to clean the outside of the toilet. Cutting down to these limited uses has cut our paper towel consumption to less than half of what we were using. I have thought about using cloth napkins rather than letting people grab a paper towel at the table but I have a hard enough time getting bar towels properly clean. If there is a tried and true way to get them completely clean so they don't have food stains I think I would finally break down and buy them.
Don't feel bad. I received some wipes for a gift and fell in love with them! It was only after I had to replace them that I got anxious. They were almost $3.00 for 40 wipes! (More expensive than my diapers!)
I'm with you on the chicken juice -- it needs to be taken seriously. While I don't go crazy with the bleach, a very weak dilution on a reusable rag has worked well. I also bust out the Lysol if needed. I find that it actually works better than the flimsy wipe, and I can rinse and reuse easily. If using a real cloth makes you nervous, you can assign certain colored washrags to certain tasks and wash them separately.
There are also lots of great natural disenfectants that contain everything from vinegar to tea tree oil, and they work fairly well, I hear.
(But I won't think less of you if you can't part with them completely!)
Since you can't know the future, any plan you make will eventually have to adapt to reality--that's true enough. But "The ONLY correct answer is 'as much as you can get,'" isn't useful advice.
It may be that no retirement will be secure in the future--I'll see your list of things you can't control and raise you a peak oil and a climate change. But then your advice shouldn't be "as much as you can get," but rather, "stay flexible and don't expect the same solution to work every time."
I think the risks you list actually support the notion of retiring early. Of course, it needs to be a retirement where you put your time and energy into keeping current and developing new skills. But at some point (and I think that point is when your investment portfolio equals your annual spending divided by 0.04), you're better served by putting further efforts into finding competely different ways to meet your needs, than by just sticking with plan A enough longer that your investment portfolio doubles (or quadruples).
I have several tablecloths that belonged to family members. I don't know what the stains are, and regular washing hasn't gotten them out.
My husband and I regularly talk and dream together about our current financial goals. (First it was getting rid of credit card debt, now it is saving for a down payment on a house) This REALLY avoids the temptation to overspend individually, because we have goals that we set together that we're both are highly- motivated to reach. We're on the same team, and our individual behaviors reflect that.
That said, if I want to go out to eat more with co-workers, or he wants new workout clothes, we look at the budget to see how that could be fit (and balanced) into the overall plan.
To sum up- work together to set and work toward the same financial goals.
(and port is our financial drink of choice (C:)
While I'm single now, I've faced a similar situation when living with a long-term boyfriend, and we hit the same problem about resentment.
My question to you is how often you will be reviewing how well each of you stick to this agreement? Once a month? Every 3 months? Reviewing at all?
Everyone likes to think they can change once they make the decision to do so, but more often than not, it takes time and effort (and some slip-ups) to make it happen. What happens when you find out his eTopps budget is going beyond what is "allowed", or vice-versa on your iTunes purchases? What's then?
*I hope none of this sounds like a challenge--just curious to see how other people work this stuff out!
How much do you need for retirement? The ONLY correct answer is "as much as you can get". Spending down 4-5%? If you talked to a financial planner in 1998 or 1999 they would have told you 7-8%. You CANNOT predict the future. Any assumptions used (taxes, inflation, interest rates, etc) will all be wrong. I can guarantee you that. There is NO financial plan that has EVER worked out in real life. They look great on paper but money is not math and math is not money.
Instead of focusing on things you can't control (taxes, inflation, rates of return, technological change, planned obsolescence, creditors, lawsuits, the government changing the rules of your retirement plan) why don't you focus on what you CAN control: internal efficiency. If you are as effective and efficient as possible with your money, have no over payments of taxes, no product overlap, no unnecessary costs or fees, and have maximum protection so that you never go backwards at any point in time...isn't that really all you can do?
By looking at everything from a macro-economic perspective you can have more money that any arbitrary goal or need. Then you can cover that need and have extra left over.
There is a huge difference between INvesting and DISinvesting.
I'm in agreement with the other posters who recommended that each person have personal funds which they can spend as wished. My husband and I use that system, and it works well for us. There are also joint funds which are spent only according to mutual agreement.
Of course, to get to this point couples have to be able to sit down and realistically discuss their goals and expenses. They also have to be ethical enough to not "rob" the joint account when they've used up their personal funds.
My husband and I also agreed on an amount each month for each of us to spend, no questions asked. Each of us has things we like that the other doesn't and a different idea of what is useful or valuable-he likes hockey games, I like shoes. Generally speaking, he doesn't like to deal with money. So we keep things simple, such as having a food budget and an agreement to discuss any big items or non-budget items before purchase. So far, so good.
I have another suggestion, which is instead of depending on just honesty (stuff eventually/still gets low-balled or sneaked into the house - then the issue of honesty in the marriage itself is challenged), designate a certain amount of money each person is allowed to spend on 'secret' stuff. They can buy on their own and are trusted to not go over their budget, but don't have to 'confess' each time it happens...
expanded more at http://asperis.wordpress.com/2008/01/10/realistic-budgeting-possible/
(I'm new at this blog thing, so I hope I'm doing it right :)
I was given a swiffer wet jet and used it on my floors. A strong chemical smell wafted up to me. I looked at the carton to figure out how I was to rinse the chemicals...and you're supposed to leave that toxic stew laying all over your floors! I have dogs and kids who are often on the floor and to me that isn't acceptable. Same with the Clorox coutner wipes. I'd rather ingest a little chicken juice than have my counters covered in a thin layer of chemicals.
I use mostly Dr. Bronners soaps and dishrags to do all my floors and counters these days.
Thought provoking post, Marcia. I'm sure you'll get a fair amount of discussion on this piece. In our house, we are very honest about money. That being said, I think it's because we are very much in agreement regarding the various issues surrounding it.
Also, now that things are flowing a little easier financially, it's way easier. We don't live extravagently, don't get me wrong. But there's a tad more wiggle room which allows us to sort of let each other have a bit of a "lead" so to speak. I'll be interested to see how this unfolds. I predict a fair amount of discussion on this post.
Its the real thing? Obviously, unless you can get the ingredients for moon sand, you cant make ACTUAL moonsand :D
Im going to try this with my kids. I dont mind having to add some water...THANKS!
Consumer Reports tests verify that A/C typically costs you 1 mpg in gas mileage at a speed of 65 mph; opening windows costs even less. (Obviously, it's even better if you can just dress for the conditions, though.)
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/tires-auto-parts/car-maintenance...
And it increases each year for inflation too. Part of his retirement package also includes health insurance for both of us. So we're fortunate there. It still needs to be seriously supplemented, though, both on the pension and insurance fronts. Still, we're grateful for the stability.
i cant keep them on my teeth they fall off and once i close my mouth they fall off what am i doing rong?
Yeah, I should have thought to mention that pensions are still common for people who work for governments: the military, school teachers, public service workers of all kinds, government officials, etc.
A pension, even a small pension, is a great stablizer of post-retirement income. Highly recommended for those who can arrange one.
Those sponges that are yellow with a green, scraggly side for scrubbing? I use those instead of cloth wipes. I don't have a washer / dryer in my place, so laundry doesn't get done often enough for me to feel comfortable using cloths, even with Lysol.
the sponges, on the other hand, can be used over and over again. And when they get bacteria built-up in them (evidenced by that awful smell they give off), get them wet and soapy, and nuke them in the microwave for 30 seconds. It kills something like 99% of the bacteria in them.
Granted, I don't know how biodegradable(?) they are, but for only having to buy them on occasion, they sure are a frugal option for me.
I am sorry to hear about this. I'm in a very similar situation with my mother, only she doesn't seem to have Alzheimers to the best of my knowledge. She, as your grandmother was, is so convinced she will win one of these lotteries or Publisher Clearing house offers, and has been for many, many years. After all, the psychics she periodically pays for readings are always telling her she'll be rich soon (the fact that they've been telling her the same vague crap for twenty years or more hasn't deterred her yet). A few years back she got scammed by the "you've won 2 million US dollars in the Spanish lottery" scam, where you have to send them a couple hundred to cover the "administrative" costs. Once they hook you, they don't let go. They keep calling asking for account numbers to deposit the check to and additional adminstrative cost money to cover snags. It took me and my brother and a person at the bank to convince my mother they weren't legitamite. Even then she questioned it until we got her to file a police report and they told her it was a well known scam. When my mother informed the scammer on the phone that she'd gone to the police and he shouldn't call back or he'd be in trouble, he laughed before he hung up. Fortunately they got less than a $1000 out of her, but this is the only one we know about. When I collected her mail while visiting over the holidays, there must have been twenty envelopes, and all but two were BS "you've already won" type envelopes or requests from charities for money. Given the volume, I have to wonder which ones I've missed and how much she's spent. I can only hope I've learned, and taught my children, better, and don't find myself doing this as I hit my late seventies.
"For dozens - even hundreds - of years we did it the simple way and nobody keeled over because of it." Actually, the biggest health improvement over the last couple of centuries is due to cleaning. Clean water, people washing their hands, and health providers washing their hands and instruments have made a big difference. But of course this can be done with ordinary soap, baking soda, vinegar, etc.
As for chicken, I don't put it the counters: I put it on cutting boards and whatever other dishes I'm using to process the chicken (bowls with egg or bread crumbs, pans, etc.). These can all go in the dishwasher.
Don't worry, I won't report anyone for being an eco-sinner. But just my two cents to several conversational points.
I too got sick of the waste of the Swiffer. But I love how compact it is and how I can get under so many areas. I found at he 99 Cents Only store in Tucson that I could get a whole pack of the microfiber Swiffer-style cloths for you guessed it, 99 cents. I just wash them out with the rest of my cleaning cloths.
The chicken goop thing. You know Thursday, chicken juice creeps me out too. I use a system similar to what Linsey was suggesting and make sure that once I wipe up chicken juice with something, it goes in the wash to be sanitized.
Cloth napkins - well, probably now is not the time to ask me since everything I have is in storage and we are sharing a face cloth at the counter every night instead, but I found the food stain thing to be annoying before our stuff was shipped too. If I am using fancy light colored ones, I try not to serve anything that would leave an obnoxious stain. While I previously just dealt with the stains on my thrift store purchased ones for a dime a piece, I'm planning on just going with darker colored bandanas when we get more settled. For every day use that is. When I did the bandana post, I noticed how cheap they were by the case. So I'm looking forward to trying it.
I do keep generic baby wipes in our bathroom because until we build the new house there's no bidet or hose in this cottage. We both like having access to one or the other, and it does promote less paper usage. Probably TMI, but I thought I'd chime in.
Oh and P.S. to Linsey . . . I am SOOOOOO with you on wanting a functioning dryer back in my life. Good grief what a pain. I don't mind hanging certain things out as a rule, but some stuff is way easier when you have a dryer. And of course, since we live on a lake, it is often damper which really complicates the solar and stove drying experience.
We're using a hybrid of the first and last approach. Never heard of the four and five percent thing. Cool post, as usual.
Sorry, the chicken juice issue doesn't work for me. What did we do before we had paper towels and disposable wipes? Cleaned it up with anything handy! I just do a 'rag' wash - if the cleaning rags are particularly icky - say, I had a massive chicken juice spill :-) - I use hot water, detergent, and maybe Oxiclean (I avoid bleach, if I can). Hot water and soap go a long way for most things. :-)
A great way to provide the Fun Factor for reusable cleaning supplies is to knit your washcloths, dishcloths, rags, etc., using bright-colored yarns and fun patterns. You can get a ball of cotton at a craft store for $1.27 that will make two decent-sized rags or one large one, and there are free patterns all over the web. When they get dirty, they can go in the wash like any other cotton cloth, and they hold up really well. =)
I feel this is a good time to mention a book I've seen that will help with this very problem - Clean: The Humble Art of Zen-Cleansing by Michael De Jong. I've only flipped through it, but it seems to be a rather exhaustive recipe book for cleaning your home using only five products: Baking Soda, Borax, Lemon, Salt and White Vinegar. It could be a good step towards this goal of reducing 'clean waste!'
You forgot to mention the abomination of waste that is the swiffer!
I can't imagine throwing all of those sheets away and buying again and again expensive boxes of wipes. We bought a microfiber dust mop at Target that has a removable head that goes in the wash. We also found a big pack of large sized microfiber dusting cloths in the auto section of Target for $7. Between these two and an electrostatic duster I see no point in products like swiffer other than to waste money and fill up your trash.
We have been trying to cut down on paper towel consumption. I only use them to clean if it is really greasy or really gross (like the dog messes) or to clean the outside of the toilet. Cutting down to these limited uses has cut our paper towel consumption to less than half of what we were using. I have thought about using cloth napkins rather than letting people grab a paper towel at the table but I have a hard enough time getting bar towels properly clean. If there is a tried and true way to get them completely clean so they don't have food stains I think I would finally break down and buy them.
Don't feel bad. I received some wipes for a gift and fell in love with them! It was only after I had to replace them that I got anxious. They were almost $3.00 for 40 wipes! (More expensive than my diapers!)
I'm with you on the chicken juice -- it needs to be taken seriously. While I don't go crazy with the bleach, a very weak dilution on a reusable rag has worked well. I also bust out the Lysol if needed. I find that it actually works better than the flimsy wipe, and I can rinse and reuse easily. If using a real cloth makes you nervous, you can assign certain colored washrags to certain tasks and wash them separately.
There are also lots of great natural disenfectants that contain everything from vinegar to tea tree oil, and they work fairly well, I hear.
(But I won't think less of you if you can't part with them completely!)