The minimum wage does very little for the poor. What it does do is raise the cost of products for everyone including the poor. Since this is the "only" significant legislature the current congress has passed, maybe we should say thanks.
It is great to see that someone else's family plays this game. My grandmother and her "posse" used to play all the time and our whole family plays when we get together. Seeing your post just reminded me of so many great times around my grandmother's breakfast room table (my sister has the table at her house and we play there now) we even modified the game to play with one deck and only two people (you gotta get your fix) same rules except there is no picking out of turn so we deal 13 cards for the last two hands. By the way, we throw out the jokers and all 2's are wild and the scoring is slightly different 15 points for aces and 2's are 25 pts.
Some have argued that a raise in minimum wage would hurt small businesses . . . 91%, of small businesses already pay their workers more than the minimum wage so there is not much for them to worry about.
I don't think I could have refuted this better than Sam did, so I'll just second his opening paragraph. :)
Yes, I realize that if we're talking about people who's wages are affected by a minimum wage increase, we're often talking about the "working poor" and we should be sympathetic to people who only earn that much. But, perhaps it's these very people who need some flexibility in the work place to get ahead. Consider a "receptionist" who settles for minimum wage but who learns to process bills and payments for a small company that needs her to do that as part of her "receptionist" duties. Perhaps the added skills and experience (which can be documented on a resume and backed up with a reference, no less) leads to a better position a couple of years later.
And yes again, if we're talking about a business that is going to be affected by raising wages less than a dollar, then perhaps this isn't a very stable business to begin with, and one could question whether it needs to exist. Welcome to the world of small business entrepreneurship! If an entrepreneur is willing to just get by financially for the privilege of setting his own hours, not working for someone else and/or doing what s/he loves, all the while providing local products and services and *creating jobs* for those who obviously wouldn't otherwise be earning six figures elsewhere, then more power to the business owner!
I'm all for people earning a fair wage for a good day's work. We have to remember, though, that small businesses have their own unique set of issues. We often assume that those with little experience or skills end up working in large, corporate-backed environments; we forget that small local businesses that need "another body" to relieve a stressed owner-operator often "take chances" on those less skilled but whom they can afford. The minimum wage rate definitely affects these operations.
While I'm not necessarily saying "abolish minimum wage" I do think that the issue needs creativity and flexibility, not one-size-fits-all legislation.
I would suggest that you go back to earlier posts in this thread and watch the Elizabeth Warren presentation. It is exactly where we live, as middle class people. I think it might give you a different view of the middle class.
My husband and I are very close to the median income. We have a three bedroom house in a little town. We have not ever driven big SUVs. My current mode of transportation is a 1985 Chevy. We bought it used in 1999 for not very much. I am hoping it lasts another three years until my youngest is out of college. The girls started at a community college and went from there. The eldest is out and has a responsible job that is using her degree. She is living like a broke college student until her loan is paid off.
However, some of the things touched on in that video are very pertinent to the plight of the middle class today. We are experiencing them. First, the cost of medical insurance and medical problems have shifted dramatically. Medical insurance used to be included in any good benefits package for basically free. As medical costs have skyrocketed, employers have passed those costs on to their employees. People are paying up to five hundred a month for medical insurance for their families. They do so because one negative health event can bankrupt a family. Second, the cost of utilities, gas, and food have gone through the roof, but the salaries of the middle class have not kept pace.
Anyway, the middle class are not all mindless consumers. Some of us have thought it out and planned as carefully as we could and we are still coming up short when it comes to putting the kids through school. When that occurs, and it does occur, we do feel less than generous when it comes to being shut out of the financial aid process b/c we might make just a little too much to be considered.
The middle class is the most heavily taxed group in America. Most of the social spending programs come straight out of our pocket. The only place government has to go for funding is to the people, it is not productive on its own.
In Australia the minimum wage for a worker over the age of 21 is something like $15-$18. Only people who are 16 get paid $8 an hour. But then I think the cost of living in Australia is higher.
However, if you calculate how much time I spend working on my entrepreneur blog, and how much I get paid for it. Then I am earning way way way below the minimum wage. But I am hoping this will change shortly.
Thanks for the ideas everyone. Christopher, it looks like scout camp taught (or reinforced) patience, which surely is required to make lanyards as you describe. And it seems that cards can teach math and strategy!
Abolishing the minimum wage would only further exacerbate the gulf between the affluent and the impoverished by allowing the more established businesses to operate with an even lower wage floor. If anything, cheapening labor this much would result in an even more pathetic service sector, and an even worse service experience for customers. That is, unless you happen to enjoy the "Stepin Fetchit" experience.
Make no mistake - over a million workers are earning less than the minimum wage. Waiters and waitresses in some places are paid less, and make up the rest in tips. Undocumented workers are sometimes paid less. There are some immigrants who are enslaved by their smugglers. Strippers work for tips. So do some "bar backs" and "waitresses" at night clubs in some cities. You can look this up at the BLS or click my link.
On the flipside, in a state like California, anyone who works is likely to earn more than the minimum wage, because unemployment is relatively lower than elsewhere, and the cost of living is higher. The high cost of living can translate into a higher barrier of entry into the conventional workforce -- so someone who is very desperate may turn to the underground economy first, to get enough cash to afford the expenses of working in a conventional job.
That's where these illegal sub-minimum jobs can appear. For example, suppose you need to make a quick $50 and you have no job. Not only that, but, you're poor and have no interview wardrobe. What to do? Well, you can start by odd-jobbing in any bazaar-like marketplace. Hold a sign, or pass out flyers. The benefit is that the hours are "now" and you don't need nice clothes. These jobs are a mixed blessing - it's good to be able to work, but, you don't want this kind of work to be too common.
If you got rid of the minimum wage, this kind of style of work would spread into the conventional, more above-board workplaces. Is this something we want?
There's a living example of this in Mexico. There, at Wal-Marts, boys will bag your groceries and carry them to the car. These boys are not paid by Wal-Mart - they work for tips - yet, they also work within the store when they're bagging. This is the norm in Mexico, according to Wal-Mart spokespersons.
Is this the situation we want for ourselves?
I would rather that a day's work earn a fair day's wages. Enough to live on, and a little bit extra to save for the future. Minimum wage isn't that, but it's a step in the right direction.
It does hurt small businesses actually because it removes the flexibility of business owners to decide how much to pay their own employees. As a result, it may be difficult for small businesses operating at the margins to find ways to cut costs while continuing to offer a competitive service and attractive employee benefits.
But the more pressing issue with this raise is, does it really benefit the working class? Economic research shows that mandatory minimum wage increases offer little help to the working poor. According to analysis of 2003 Current Population Survey,over 70 percent of workers living in poor families - the "working class" - earn hourly wages greater than $7.00 an hour.10. If legislators really want to help the poor, the best thing they can do is abolish, not increase, the minimum wage. Policies that increase competition and choice in public education, reduce marginal tax rates on capital and labor, and protect private property rights would be positive steps toward increasing economic freedom, workers' dignity, and prosperity.
I've always answered #21 (and its variants) by saying, "I am ready and willing to devote long hours, work, thought, and creative talent to the company. You will rarely see a harder and more loyal worker. But my family comes first. Always has, always will."
Any company that would demand my loyalty to them over my loyalty to family is not a company I would wish to work for, even in the short run.
Probably the reason why outsourcing work is a nice business venture now a days. There's even a book that suggest that you outsource your life to be rich! Check out 4-Hour Work Week book. Really inspiring.
Hey Toni, I tried the second method, canned air and it didn't work for me. The dent was fairly deep about 1/2" so maybe that's why it didn't work. It didn't do any damage to the paint job and I tried it several times. Hopefully your son's girlfriend will have better luck. Hey did you have any damage with the plunger??? I might give that a try.
Hi Philip: your articles are great. I am wondering may I have your permission to translate some of them into Chinese to spread your ideas even wider and inspire more unintended minds.
I tried the method above and it didn't do a thing except cost me $4. My 2000 dodge mini van has a small 2"x2" dent on top of the front wheel quarter panel (right next to the antenna). Got out the hair dryer, heated up the area for about 1 minute, immediately sprayed the can air and nothing happened. Was really disappointed, from watching the video I really thought it would work. I also tried it on a smaller dent about the size of a golf ball, again NOTHING. I would try the hot ice but I'm pretty sure I'll have the same results. Guess I'll have to do it the old fashion way.
I believe almost every job has some amount of mopping vs. value adding productivity. Unless you have a job that you truly love 100% of the time, some amount of mopping is required.
When I started college, uh, 20 years ago (yikes), you could be considered "separate" from your parents if you were under 24 AND were either:
1. married
2. in the military
Not sure of the rules now.
I was one of those poor kids who went to a private school. Even a good scholarship meant I had to borrow for room and board, so after the first year I joined ROTC to pay tuition.
Some of my classmates back then would say "doesn't it suck how little you would be making when you graduate?" And some of my friends at my first post-Navy job would say "you are so lucky you don't have DEBT!" But the honest truth is that I made a choice...I was lucky to get the scholarship, and that's why I didn't have debt.
The last engineer to work for me went to community college before transferring to UC. You couldn't tell the difference from someone who went all through UC, except maybe he was more down to earth and practical, and all around a really good guy.
When i filed my tax return I transposed the two middle digits of my childs SS #. I amended my return after notified by the IRS and corrected the error. But the agent I spoke with today claims they can't issue the stimulus payment on a corrected return only on the initial return so I won't get the $300 credit for my child. Any suggestions?
I grew up middle class. I didn't want for anything. I have a hard time feeling pity for the middle class, because they chose the expensive 5-br house, fancy TVs, SUVs, etc, etc, etc. It's not being middle class that screws anyone out of financial aid, it's poor budgeting and a failure to plan. It's not like expensive colleges are a big surprise to anyone - save for it.
The only people for whom it really sucks are the kids whose parents make a tidy sum and refuse to pay for any part of college. But even then, summer jobs and filing taxes independently can help pay the way through a good state school (which is still a good school, in the end).
I agree with you completely. Why do it yourself (especially a job that you hate) when you can pay someone to do it and you can continue to work and earn more money than you would have saved. This is my mentality when it comes for paying for things. I do always try to save as much as I can, but I would always pay someone to do something I hated if it saved me money
I like this list (and those on the links) because I can look ahead to what to be planning for. And as retired Navy people, a list like this would have been real handy when first moving into an area. I'd been in Washington for 2 years before I found out cherries grow here! Not everyone has been doing this "all thier lives" and not everyone knows what's in the area. Refering to people who appreciate the help as stupid is certainly a good way to make them throw up thier hands and say "forget it" to the whole frugel world and just buy what they want.
Thanks for taking the time to put together such a nice site.
Is it just me, or is this website getting stupider and stupider? I'm with the previous commenter - go the farmer's market and see what's local and abundant.
I always want to hire someone to clean my place, but my husband refuses on principle. He says that I should clean my own place and I say that I earned the money to hire someone. Sigh...
My problem comes with impulse buys as well. I think this is a funny approach to looking at how I can deal with my wants. My problem, however is that I don't have anyone there telling me I don't need it.
The minimum wage does very little for the poor. What it does do is raise the cost of products for everyone including the poor. Since this is the "only" significant legislature the current congress has passed, maybe we should say thanks.
"In Australia the minimum wage for a worker over the age of 21 is something like $15-$18."
It's sad how far the US has fallen behind.
It is great to see that someone else's family plays this game. My grandmother and her "posse" used to play all the time and our whole family plays when we get together. Seeing your post just reminded me of so many great times around my grandmother's breakfast room table (my sister has the table at her house and we play there now) we even modified the game to play with one deck and only two people (you gotta get your fix) same rules except there is no picking out of turn so we deal 13 cards for the last two hands. By the way, we throw out the jokers and all 2's are wild and the scoring is slightly different 15 points for aces and 2's are 25 pts.
Some have argued that a raise in minimum wage would hurt small businesses . . . 91%, of small businesses already pay their workers more than the minimum wage so there is not much for them to worry about.
I don't think I could have refuted this better than Sam did, so I'll just second his opening paragraph. :)
Yes, I realize that if we're talking about people who's wages are affected by a minimum wage increase, we're often talking about the "working poor" and we should be sympathetic to people who only earn that much. But, perhaps it's these very people who need some flexibility in the work place to get ahead. Consider a "receptionist" who settles for minimum wage but who learns to process bills and payments for a small company that needs her to do that as part of her "receptionist" duties. Perhaps the added skills and experience (which can be documented on a resume and backed up with a reference, no less) leads to a better position a couple of years later.
And yes again, if we're talking about a business that is going to be affected by raising wages less than a dollar, then perhaps this isn't a very stable business to begin with, and one could question whether it needs to exist. Welcome to the world of small business entrepreneurship! If an entrepreneur is willing to just get by financially for the privilege of setting his own hours, not working for someone else and/or doing what s/he loves, all the while providing local products and services and *creating jobs* for those who obviously wouldn't otherwise be earning six figures elsewhere, then more power to the business owner!
I'm all for people earning a fair wage for a good day's work. We have to remember, though, that small businesses have their own unique set of issues. We often assume that those with little experience or skills end up working in large, corporate-backed environments; we forget that small local businesses that need "another body" to relieve a stressed owner-operator often "take chances" on those less skilled but whom they can afford. The minimum wage rate definitely affects these operations.
While I'm not necessarily saying "abolish minimum wage" I do think that the issue needs creativity and flexibility, not one-size-fits-all legislation.
Depali,
I would suggest that you go back to earlier posts in this thread and watch the Elizabeth Warren presentation. It is exactly where we live, as middle class people. I think it might give you a different view of the middle class.
My husband and I are very close to the median income. We have a three bedroom house in a little town. We have not ever driven big SUVs. My current mode of transportation is a 1985 Chevy. We bought it used in 1999 for not very much. I am hoping it lasts another three years until my youngest is out of college. The girls started at a community college and went from there. The eldest is out and has a responsible job that is using her degree. She is living like a broke college student until her loan is paid off.
However, some of the things touched on in that video are very pertinent to the plight of the middle class today. We are experiencing them. First, the cost of medical insurance and medical problems have shifted dramatically. Medical insurance used to be included in any good benefits package for basically free. As medical costs have skyrocketed, employers have passed those costs on to their employees. People are paying up to five hundred a month for medical insurance for their families. They do so because one negative health event can bankrupt a family. Second, the cost of utilities, gas, and food have gone through the roof, but the salaries of the middle class have not kept pace.
Anyway, the middle class are not all mindless consumers. Some of us have thought it out and planned as carefully as we could and we are still coming up short when it comes to putting the kids through school. When that occurs, and it does occur, we do feel less than generous when it comes to being shut out of the financial aid process b/c we might make just a little too much to be considered.
The middle class is the most heavily taxed group in America. Most of the social spending programs come straight out of our pocket. The only place government has to go for funding is to the people, it is not productive on its own.
In Australia the minimum wage for a worker over the age of 21 is something like $15-$18. Only people who are 16 get paid $8 an hour. But then I think the cost of living in Australia is higher.
However, if you calculate how much time I spend working on my entrepreneur blog, and how much I get paid for it. Then I am earning way way way below the minimum wage. But I am hoping this will change shortly.
Thanks for the ideas everyone. Christopher, it looks like scout camp taught (or reinforced) patience, which surely is required to make lanyards as you describe. And it seems that cards can teach math and strategy!
Abolishing the minimum wage would only further exacerbate the gulf between the affluent and the impoverished by allowing the more established businesses to operate with an even lower wage floor. If anything, cheapening labor this much would result in an even more pathetic service sector, and an even worse service experience for customers. That is, unless you happen to enjoy the "Stepin Fetchit" experience.
Make no mistake - over a million workers are earning less than the minimum wage. Waiters and waitresses in some places are paid less, and make up the rest in tips. Undocumented workers are sometimes paid less. There are some immigrants who are enslaved by their smugglers. Strippers work for tips. So do some "bar backs" and "waitresses" at night clubs in some cities. You can look this up at the BLS or click my link.
On the flipside, in a state like California, anyone who works is likely to earn more than the minimum wage, because unemployment is relatively lower than elsewhere, and the cost of living is higher. The high cost of living can translate into a higher barrier of entry into the conventional workforce -- so someone who is very desperate may turn to the underground economy first, to get enough cash to afford the expenses of working in a conventional job.
That's where these illegal sub-minimum jobs can appear. For example, suppose you need to make a quick $50 and you have no job. Not only that, but, you're poor and have no interview wardrobe. What to do? Well, you can start by odd-jobbing in any bazaar-like marketplace. Hold a sign, or pass out flyers. The benefit is that the hours are "now" and you don't need nice clothes. These jobs are a mixed blessing - it's good to be able to work, but, you don't want this kind of work to be too common.
If you got rid of the minimum wage, this kind of style of work would spread into the conventional, more above-board workplaces. Is this something we want?
There's a living example of this in Mexico. There, at Wal-Marts, boys will bag your groceries and carry them to the car. These boys are not paid by Wal-Mart - they work for tips - yet, they also work within the store when they're bagging. This is the norm in Mexico, according to Wal-Mart spokespersons.
Is this the situation we want for ourselves?
I would rather that a day's work earn a fair day's wages. Enough to live on, and a little bit extra to save for the future. Minimum wage isn't that, but it's a step in the right direction.
It can replace instances of "he or she", "his or hers"!
Examples:
He said, she said. => Hershey said.
If one wants to play with hershey's own balls, then hershey must first learn to juggle with one of hershey's balls first.
It does hurt small businesses actually because it removes the flexibility of business owners to decide how much to pay their own employees. As a result, it may be difficult for small businesses operating at the margins to find ways to cut costs while continuing to offer a competitive service and attractive employee benefits.
But the more pressing issue with this raise is, does it really benefit the working class? Economic research shows that mandatory minimum wage increases offer little help to the working poor. According to analysis of 2003 Current Population Survey,over 70 percent of workers living in poor families - the "working class" - earn hourly wages greater than $7.00 an hour.10. If legislators really want to help the poor, the best thing they can do is abolish, not increase, the minimum wage. Policies that increase competition and choice in public education, reduce marginal tax rates on capital and labor, and protect private property rights would be positive steps toward increasing economic freedom, workers' dignity, and prosperity.
Sam
Fix My Personal Finance
http://fixmypersonalfinance.com/
I've always answered #21 (and its variants) by saying, "I am ready and willing to devote long hours, work, thought, and creative talent to the company. You will rarely see a harder and more loyal worker. But my family comes first. Always has, always will."
Any company that would demand my loyalty to them over my loyalty to family is not a company I would wish to work for, even in the short run.
Probably the reason why outsourcing work is a nice business venture now a days. There's even a book that suggest that you outsource your life to be rich! Check out 4-Hour Work Week book. Really inspiring.
Sam
Fix My Personal Finance
http://fixmypersonalfinance.com/
Hey Toni, I tried the second method, canned air and it didn't work for me. The dent was fairly deep about 1/2" so maybe that's why it didn't work. It didn't do any damage to the paint job and I tried it several times. Hopefully your son's girlfriend will have better luck. Hey did you have any damage with the plunger??? I might give that a try.
Hi Philip: your articles are great. I am wondering may I have your permission to translate some of them into Chinese to spread your ideas even wider and inspire more unintended minds.
Best Regards
I tried the method above and it didn't do a thing except cost me $4. My 2000 dodge mini van has a small 2"x2" dent on top of the front wheel quarter panel (right next to the antenna). Got out the hair dryer, heated up the area for about 1 minute, immediately sprayed the can air and nothing happened. Was really disappointed, from watching the video I really thought it would work. I also tried it on a smaller dent about the size of a golf ball, again NOTHING. I would try the hot ice but I'm pretty sure I'll have the same results. Guess I'll have to do it the old fashion way.
Nice post.
I believe almost every job has some amount of mopping vs. value adding productivity. Unless you have a job that you truly love 100% of the time, some amount of mopping is required.
When I started college, uh, 20 years ago (yikes), you could be considered "separate" from your parents if you were under 24 AND were either:
1. married
2. in the military
Not sure of the rules now.
I was one of those poor kids who went to a private school. Even a good scholarship meant I had to borrow for room and board, so after the first year I joined ROTC to pay tuition.
Some of my classmates back then would say "doesn't it suck how little you would be making when you graduate?" And some of my friends at my first post-Navy job would say "you are so lucky you don't have DEBT!" But the honest truth is that I made a choice...I was lucky to get the scholarship, and that's why I didn't have debt.
The last engineer to work for me went to community college before transferring to UC. You couldn't tell the difference from someone who went all through UC, except maybe he was more down to earth and practical, and all around a really good guy.
When i filed my tax return I transposed the two middle digits of my childs SS #. I amended my return after notified by the IRS and corrected the error. But the agent I spoke with today claims they can't issue the stimulus payment on a corrected return only on the initial return so I won't get the $300 credit for my child. Any suggestions?
I grew up middle class. I didn't want for anything. I have a hard time feeling pity for the middle class, because they chose the expensive 5-br house, fancy TVs, SUVs, etc, etc, etc. It's not being middle class that screws anyone out of financial aid, it's poor budgeting and a failure to plan. It's not like expensive colleges are a big surprise to anyone - save for it.
The only people for whom it really sucks are the kids whose parents make a tidy sum and refuse to pay for any part of college. But even then, summer jobs and filing taxes independently can help pay the way through a good state school (which is still a good school, in the end).
I agree with you completely. Why do it yourself (especially a job that you hate) when you can pay someone to do it and you can continue to work and earn more money than you would have saved. This is my mentality when it comes for paying for things. I do always try to save as much as I can, but I would always pay someone to do something I hated if it saved me money
I like this list (and those on the links) because I can look ahead to what to be planning for. And as retired Navy people, a list like this would have been real handy when first moving into an area. I'd been in Washington for 2 years before I found out cherries grow here! Not everyone has been doing this "all thier lives" and not everyone knows what's in the area. Refering to people who appreciate the help as stupid is certainly a good way to make them throw up thier hands and say "forget it" to the whole frugel world and just buy what they want.
Thanks for taking the time to put together such a nice site.
That's the thing about being a grown-up--stuff like that you have to learn to do yourself.
Is it just me, or is this website getting stupider and stupider? I'm with the previous commenter - go the farmer's market and see what's local and abundant.
I always want to hire someone to clean my place, but my husband refuses on principle. He says that I should clean my own place and I say that I earned the money to hire someone. Sigh...
My problem comes with impulse buys as well. I think this is a funny approach to looking at how I can deal with my wants. My problem, however is that I don't have anyone there telling me I don't need it.