I've been selling on Etsy for over a year (and buying as well, of course) and I'm as in love with it as I ever was - thanks for blogging about such a great place!
In some places anyone can take the fruit on the side of the tree that faces the alley, since it is not on the owners property. My uncle had a grapefruit tree, and most of the branches faced to an alley, since he did not want people to take his grapefruits, he would pull the branches in; sometimes breaking the branches and losing lots of the grapefruits... Selfish man!!!
in principle it is unethical to sneak into a movie. Is it also unethical for a company to mark up popcorn by some 500%? I would say so, it certainly seems unreasonable. Is it unreasonable for you to use a sheet of paper from work and not pay for it? Yup. But is it also unreasonable for your company to keep you back 2 hours to work on a project without paying for your time? Happens to me all the time. As for the overdraft, that was an error. Not on my part, but by a company that charged me twice for the same product, a large product, I am usually excellent with my bills thanks all the same.
@Paul: You're quite right, the post is about whether we think it is right or wrong (hence why my post shares my views of the ethical nature of each proposition). You've made clear that you would do several of the activities, but you didn't say whether you thought they were wrong or not. Are you saying you feel it's right to do so, or are you saying "Yeah, I know it's wrong and I do it anyway, so there"?
As for your bank, that's also a common practice in the US; there are two really simple solutions to it too. 1) Don't overdraw your account (it doesn't overdraw itself, you know; you had to *do* something to overdraw it, so don't do that anymore), or 2) Find another bank. (I used to bank with one that charged me fees, and I changed; my new one doesn't charge me fees for anything because I'm a "premier" customer.)
It pains me to have to point out what Paul said above, but these are not recommendations. They are, however, things that I know people have justified in the past through various arguments. This post originated because some readers freaked out over a cheeky, half-serious recommendation that Paul made in his now-infamous and famous post, 10 frugal things to try before you die.
I was curious how our readers view these things. Very few things are absolute, no matter how ethical you think you are. But again, and of course, I clearly have to stress this AGAIN, I'm not recommending any of this.
Andrea's list is not a guide to being frugal, it's a question. Which of these, if any, are ok? Which are not? If you happen to be someone who never does anything remotely wrong, or even sweeps away bugs on the path to ensure you don;t take the life of any living creature, then I applaud you. I am not such a person I'm sorry to say. I did sneak into movies as a young teen. I have taken a gummy bear from the candy store as I was filling my bag with sweeties. And if the bank wants to give me extra money, I'll take it. They're more than happy to charge me $35 if I go into the red by one cent (which happened by the way...in Britain it is still illegal to charge a fee more than the amount you went overdrawn by, although most people don't know that),
1-4: 100% Unethical. You are directly stealing something you haven't paid for, and you know you're required to pay for it. If you get caught, you can be arrested or sued.
5-7: 100% Unethical. You are receiving stolen property; you know it doesn't belong to you, and you know it doesn't belong to the person who gave it to you (the employee who made a mistake). It isn't their's to give to you, and it isn't yours to take.
8. Unethical, for different reason. It's perfectly ethical to take something that belongs to you and sell it to someone else when you can no longer benefit from it. However, the unethical part of ticket scalping is the price-gouging; in the old days, they called it usury. Taking advantage of others is unethical.
9. Sticky situation. If you have to lie, then it's unethical. If you have the tenacity to call them up and say "I will not buy your product, but will accept your free vacation" and they say "That's okay, come anyway" because they think they can change your mind, then you've acted ethically, because you were clear that you weren't interested in what they are selling.
10-11, 15. Unethical. You're stealing from your employer, and you know you are. If materials are purchased for work-use only, and you take them to use for non-work activities, then you are a thief. (Occasionally walking off with a pen still in your shirt pocket, or grabbing a Tylenol for your migraine on the way out the door isn't grand theft, but if you're stocking out your home with company products, then you've become a crook.)
12. Unethical. If you have to lie, it's unethical.
13. Ethical. Samples are intended to introduce you to a product in the hope you will buy it. Not necessarily buy it *today*, but buy it. If you go to the grocery and have a sample (even if it's every one in the store), the likelihood is you'll decide to buy it *at some point.* Does Dad ever come home and say "I had this great _____, get some the next time you're there?"
14. I can't believe I even have to say "Unethical." Somebody had to pay to harvest, wash, sort, grade, ship, and stock those tops, so you have to pay to benefit from them. If you cut the tops off, you're a thief.
16. Ethical, as long as the store permits/encourages it. Stores like Barnes & Noble allow & encourage customers to sit all day and read books & magazines because they know the longer a customer is there, the more likely they are to spend. As long as they are permitting it, it's okay. (If the store has "This is not a library" signs posted, then you've been warned, and it would be unethical to take advantage of them.)
17. Ethical. Once you put it on the curb, it's no longer yours. If they're fishing out your personal information and using it for fraud, then that is unethical, but if they're pulling out that Size 2 Prada you threw away because it doesn't even fit the canary, then it's you're fault for throwing it out instead of selling it yourself.
18. Unethical if they're utilizing it, ethical if they aren't, but you should always ask. You might *think* they aren't using it, but perhaps they have some use you don't know about. So ask; "The fruit on your tree looks so beautiful, and it seems you don't pick it. Would you mind if I took an apple or two on occasion?" It's common courtesy.
19. Unethical. You're deliberately abusing a convenience they offer, knowing you're defrauding them in the process.
20. Unethical. As I said above, if you have to lie, it's unethical. (Some would probably say that if you're at Planned Parenthood, lying isn't really what you should be concerned about, but I choose not to make judgment on that.)
What is the matter with people--isn't there any integrity anymore? Is making or saving a buck really worth your integrity? Thinking about this list and how people think it's OK to do most of these things really grosses me out.
It doesn't gross me out, but I don't consider it savory behavior.
Thinking of Will's honey-packet swiping as a good example, is it OK to take more napkins than you need at a place like McDonald's or Starbucks to replenish your supply at home?
we tell her it was wrong to take it, and we donate the toy. She hasn't done it for months, so we figure she has learned the lesson. My 8 month old just did it for the first time this week. She's way too young to even know what's going on, so that one's more tricky.
Actually, come to think of it ... it depends on where the trash is. It could be an invasion of privacy/trespassing if someone is pilfering through your garbage on your property. However, if the garbage is in a public dumpster ... then that might be another story.
Basically, if you have to ASK or WONDER whether something is OK ... then it probably ISN'T!
What is the matter with people--isn't there any integrity anymore? Is making or saving a buck really worth your integrity? Thinking about this list and how people think it's OK to do most of these things really grosses me out.
I have a friend who sometimes ask me to bring her honey packets from Starbucks. So I would take two packets of honey even though I had no intention of using the honey myself. If anyone responds with "that's a sticky situation," I might have to cry.
Just about every one of these is STEALING--not getting a bargain but TAKING OR KEEPING SOMETHING THAT IS NOT YOURS! That's not being thrifty or frugal--that's being a theif! One exception is the trash thing--if something is clearly someone else's garbage, then it is fair game.
...now I'm afraid to tell you what I do and do not do on this list. Sufficient to say that, if they don't password protect their internet, isn't it free game? Don't ask me how many of my neighbors have unprotected WiFi, because I won't tell you. I don't know anything.
I would also be a cheap-ass Starbux-er, if I drank milk, which I don't. I'd pick fruit that was in my territory, or "fair game" territory, and sell my neighbor's garbage (if it came to that). And I'd go grocery sampling and do the whole free-trip-for-spiel thang. I might sneak into a movie, I think the RIAA is stupid (as a writer, I'd rather have what I've written be READ than receive money for it, even if I deserve the money, and I think music and video should be the same way), I'd take some sorts of office supplies but not others, I might fudge coupon codes (depending on the situation), and I try to read magazines in grocery lines so I don't have to buy them so I'd totally do the B&N thing.
Yikes! I just said all of that. Actually, I'm not sure I think all of those things are right, just that I could talk myself into doing them. That's pathetic. Maybe I should jump on the "self-improvement" bandwagon.
Most of these I would put firmly in the "wrong" category, mainly because if I was on the "other side" - the person who owns the store, runs the movie theatre, is the cashier who will have the "off" till at the end of the day, etc... I would not want to be ripped off, taken advantage of or paying for someone else's frugality (or possibly even greed??).
The several I wouldn't put in that category would be #9 (I actually have no idea how the whole "time share spiel for a trip" thing works), 13 (If they're giving out free samples... then eat up, they're free - but if it's a bulk container, no. Otherwise the bulk price will go up to compensate for those greedy hands of others) , 17 (With permission from the neighbor, why not? Hey and maybe with permission you can get a cut of the profit... now that's frugal), and 18 (Again with permission form the neighbor, why not? Are they really going to personally eat all that fruit? And are you constantly noticing fruit falling to the ground going rotten because they are never picked. Most trees produce plenty of fruit to share).
You know how I feel on the movie sneaking, but lets not open up old wounds. I believe some of those (e.g. stealing wireless) are wrong, and others are a matter for your own personal morals. I see nothing wrong with using the medicine cabinet at work if I have a headache, that's what it's there for.
I do have one of my moral conundrum of my own. Several times over the last two years, my little daughter (now almost 3) has grabbed something from a store shelf as we're wandering through the aisles doing our shop. We only discover this thing (usually a shiny toy) as we're lifting her out of the buggy and into the car seat. To be honest, we have rarely taken it back because a) we didn't actually want it and thus don't want to pay for it, but b) if we rip it from her hands we'll be dealing with a screaming, crying, upset toddler. It's never been worth more than $5, but still, it's stealing right? So, we feel bad about that. We donate every toy to charity when we get back home and she's forgotten about it.
Just wanted to point out to anyone who chooses to do this that some lenders charge penalties (I've got a mortgage with CitiBank, against my will, and they do this) for payments made outside a certain time window in a month. Since I have mortgage payments draft directly from my bank account without writing a check, any additional (one-time) payment I make would be separate from my regular mortgage payment -- I would write a check. If that check gets to CitiBank after a certain day of the month (the 5th or 8th, I think) they'll charge me a service charge.
Of course, they've offered me the "opportunity" to make half-payments every two weeks -- resulting in 13 payments a year rather than 12 -- but the fee attached to that structure is ridiculous, too. They tell me I'll save in interest, but don't bother working in the cost of their fee to their calculations.
Every time I went into a Discovery Store I expected to see the coolest stuff and I was always disappointed. They never sold anything that was new or exiting or even that was terribly scientific. The store was neither here, no there. It was a terrible toy store (because it never stocked anything cool enough to buy) and it was a terrible science experiment store because again, it never sold anything new or exciting and they were probably afraid of law suits so they never sold the stuff that may have been slightly dangerous.
I hate to see any retail go, but this one was no surprise. When you try desperately to bring science to the lowest common denominator, you will always fail because the lowest common denominator is usually wholly disinterested in science. There is no Mythbusters on Fox if you get my drift.
If other Wisebread readers can report in on sales in their area, we may get an idea of when to start shopping for the big clearance of 50% off or more.
In my previous car, someone had rapidly and forcefully opened the door of their SUV onto my car, causing a huge dent and paint to chip away. There was even a bunch of white paint left from their SUV. And they just drove away. Why are some people such A-holes? As for the dent, I'm not sure why the methods work for some folks and not for others. I'm sorry you wasted your money on the dry ice. I hate anyone wasting money, which is why I write for WB.
7
8
10
11
12
13
14
15
17
18
20
are all things i cant say that i have done or would ever do...
16 is on my weekly agenda, totally ethical
I've been selling on Etsy for over a year (and buying as well, of course) and I'm as in love with it as I ever was - thanks for blogging about such a great place!
In some places anyone can take the fruit on the side of the tree that faces the alley, since it is not on the owners property. My uncle had a grapefruit tree, and most of the branches faced to an alley, since he did not want people to take his grapefruits, he would pull the branches in; sometimes breaking the branches and losing lots of the grapefruits... Selfish man!!!
in principle it is unethical to sneak into a movie. Is it also unethical for a company to mark up popcorn by some 500%? I would say so, it certainly seems unreasonable. Is it unreasonable for you to use a sheet of paper from work and not pay for it? Yup. But is it also unreasonable for your company to keep you back 2 hours to work on a project without paying for your time? Happens to me all the time. As for the overdraft, that was an error. Not on my part, but by a company that charged me twice for the same product, a large product, I am usually excellent with my bills thanks all the same.
Bob B. and everyone: We certainly appreciate you taking the time to share your opinion with us. Your thoughftul responses means a lot.
@Paul: You're quite right, the post is about whether we think it is right or wrong (hence why my post shares my views of the ethical nature of each proposition). You've made clear that you would do several of the activities, but you didn't say whether you thought they were wrong or not. Are you saying you feel it's right to do so, or are you saying "Yeah, I know it's wrong and I do it anyway, so there"?
As for your bank, that's also a common practice in the US; there are two really simple solutions to it too. 1) Don't overdraw your account (it doesn't overdraw itself, you know; you had to *do* something to overdraw it, so don't do that anymore), or 2) Find another bank. (I used to bank with one that charged me fees, and I changed; my new one doesn't charge me fees for anything because I'm a "premier" customer.)
It pains me to have to point out what Paul said above, but these are not recommendations. They are, however, things that I know people have justified in the past through various arguments. This post originated because some readers freaked out over a cheeky, half-serious recommendation that Paul made in his now-infamous and famous post, 10 frugal things to try before you die.
I was curious how our readers view these things. Very few things are absolute, no matter how ethical you think you are. But again, and of course, I clearly have to stress this AGAIN, I'm not recommending any of this.
Andrea's list is not a guide to being frugal, it's a question. Which of these, if any, are ok? Which are not? If you happen to be someone who never does anything remotely wrong, or even sweeps away bugs on the path to ensure you don;t take the life of any living creature, then I applaud you. I am not such a person I'm sorry to say. I did sneak into movies as a young teen. I have taken a gummy bear from the candy store as I was filling my bag with sweeties. And if the bank wants to give me extra money, I'll take it. They're more than happy to charge me $35 if I go into the red by one cent (which happened by the way...in Britain it is still illegal to charge a fee more than the amount you went overdrawn by, although most people don't know that),
My answers:
1-4: 100% Unethical. You are directly stealing something you haven't paid for, and you know you're required to pay for it. If you get caught, you can be arrested or sued.
5-7: 100% Unethical. You are receiving stolen property; you know it doesn't belong to you, and you know it doesn't belong to the person who gave it to you (the employee who made a mistake). It isn't their's to give to you, and it isn't yours to take.
8. Unethical, for different reason. It's perfectly ethical to take something that belongs to you and sell it to someone else when you can no longer benefit from it. However, the unethical part of ticket scalping is the price-gouging; in the old days, they called it usury. Taking advantage of others is unethical.
9. Sticky situation. If you have to lie, then it's unethical. If you have the tenacity to call them up and say "I will not buy your product, but will accept your free vacation" and they say "That's okay, come anyway" because they think they can change your mind, then you've acted ethically, because you were clear that you weren't interested in what they are selling.
10-11, 15. Unethical. You're stealing from your employer, and you know you are. If materials are purchased for work-use only, and you take them to use for non-work activities, then you are a thief. (Occasionally walking off with a pen still in your shirt pocket, or grabbing a Tylenol for your migraine on the way out the door isn't grand theft, but if you're stocking out your home with company products, then you've become a crook.)
12. Unethical. If you have to lie, it's unethical.
13. Ethical. Samples are intended to introduce you to a product in the hope you will buy it. Not necessarily buy it *today*, but buy it. If you go to the grocery and have a sample (even if it's every one in the store), the likelihood is you'll decide to buy it *at some point.* Does Dad ever come home and say "I had this great _____, get some the next time you're there?"
14. I can't believe I even have to say "Unethical." Somebody had to pay to harvest, wash, sort, grade, ship, and stock those tops, so you have to pay to benefit from them. If you cut the tops off, you're a thief.
16. Ethical, as long as the store permits/encourages it. Stores like Barnes & Noble allow & encourage customers to sit all day and read books & magazines because they know the longer a customer is there, the more likely they are to spend. As long as they are permitting it, it's okay. (If the store has "This is not a library" signs posted, then you've been warned, and it would be unethical to take advantage of them.)
17. Ethical. Once you put it on the curb, it's no longer yours. If they're fishing out your personal information and using it for fraud, then that is unethical, but if they're pulling out that Size 2 Prada you threw away because it doesn't even fit the canary, then it's you're fault for throwing it out instead of selling it yourself.
18. Unethical if they're utilizing it, ethical if they aren't, but you should always ask. You might *think* they aren't using it, but perhaps they have some use you don't know about. So ask; "The fruit on your tree looks so beautiful, and it seems you don't pick it. Would you mind if I took an apple or two on occasion?" It's common courtesy.
19. Unethical. You're deliberately abusing a convenience they offer, knowing you're defrauding them in the process.
20. Unethical. As I said above, if you have to lie, it's unethical. (Some would probably say that if you're at Planned Parenthood, lying isn't really what you should be concerned about, but I choose not to make judgment on that.)
Some of these "frugal" tips are just plain stealing and will get you arrested.
What is the matter with people--isn't there any integrity anymore? Is making or saving a buck really worth your integrity? Thinking about this list and how people think it's OK to do most of these things really grosses me out.
It doesn't gross me out, but I don't consider it savory behavior.
Thinking of Will's honey-packet swiping as a good example, is it OK to take more napkins than you need at a place like McDonald's or Starbucks to replenish your supply at home?
we tell her it was wrong to take it, and we donate the toy. She hasn't done it for months, so we figure she has learned the lesson. My 8 month old just did it for the first time this week. She's way too young to even know what's going on, so that one's more tricky.
Isn't that teaching your daughter that it is OK to take something that is not hers?
Actually, come to think of it ... it depends on where the trash is. It could be an invasion of privacy/trespassing if someone is pilfering through your garbage on your property. However, if the garbage is in a public dumpster ... then that might be another story.
Basically, if you have to ASK or WONDER whether something is OK ... then it probably ISN'T!
What is the matter with people--isn't there any integrity anymore? Is making or saving a buck really worth your integrity? Thinking about this list and how people think it's OK to do most of these things really grosses me out.
I have a friend who sometimes ask me to bring her honey packets from Starbucks. So I would take two packets of honey even though I had no intention of using the honey myself. If anyone responds with "that's a sticky situation," I might have to cry.
Just about every one of these is STEALING--not getting a bargain but TAKING OR KEEPING SOMETHING THAT IS NOT YOURS! That's not being thrifty or frugal--that's being a theif! One exception is the trash thing--if something is clearly someone else's garbage, then it is fair game.
...now I'm afraid to tell you what I do and do not do on this list. Sufficient to say that, if they don't password protect their internet, isn't it free game? Don't ask me how many of my neighbors have unprotected WiFi, because I won't tell you. I don't know anything.
I would also be a cheap-ass Starbux-er, if I drank milk, which I don't. I'd pick fruit that was in my territory, or "fair game" territory, and sell my neighbor's garbage (if it came to that). And I'd go grocery sampling and do the whole free-trip-for-spiel thang. I might sneak into a movie, I think the RIAA is stupid (as a writer, I'd rather have what I've written be READ than receive money for it, even if I deserve the money, and I think music and video should be the same way), I'd take some sorts of office supplies but not others, I might fudge coupon codes (depending on the situation), and I try to read magazines in grocery lines so I don't have to buy them so I'd totally do the B&N thing.
Yikes! I just said all of that. Actually, I'm not sure I think all of those things are right, just that I could talk myself into doing them. That's pathetic. Maybe I should jump on the "self-improvement" bandwagon.
Gosh...I've never been a bad-girl before.
Be careful with the wifi stuff. In some places, it's now actually illegal to "steal" it.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/07/business/wifi.php
Most of these I would put firmly in the "wrong" category, mainly because if I was on the "other side" - the person who owns the store, runs the movie theatre, is the cashier who will have the "off" till at the end of the day, etc... I would not want to be ripped off, taken advantage of or paying for someone else's frugality (or possibly even greed??).
The several I wouldn't put in that category would be #9 (I actually have no idea how the whole "time share spiel for a trip" thing works), 13 (If they're giving out free samples... then eat up, they're free - but if it's a bulk container, no. Otherwise the bulk price will go up to compensate for those greedy hands of others) , 17 (With permission from the neighbor, why not? Hey and maybe with permission you can get a cut of the profit... now that's frugal), and 18 (Again with permission form the neighbor, why not? Are they really going to personally eat all that fruit? And are you constantly noticing fruit falling to the ground going rotten because they are never picked. Most trees produce plenty of fruit to share).
You know how I feel on the movie sneaking, but lets not open up old wounds. I believe some of those (e.g. stealing wireless) are wrong, and others are a matter for your own personal morals. I see nothing wrong with using the medicine cabinet at work if I have a headache, that's what it's there for.
I do have one of my moral conundrum of my own. Several times over the last two years, my little daughter (now almost 3) has grabbed something from a store shelf as we're wandering through the aisles doing our shop. We only discover this thing (usually a shiny toy) as we're lifting her out of the buggy and into the car seat. To be honest, we have rarely taken it back because a) we didn't actually want it and thus don't want to pay for it, but b) if we rip it from her hands we'll be dealing with a screaming, crying, upset toddler. It's never been worth more than $5, but still, it's stealing right? So, we feel bad about that. We donate every toy to charity when we get back home and she's forgotten about it.
Just wanted to point out to anyone who chooses to do this that some lenders charge penalties (I've got a mortgage with CitiBank, against my will, and they do this) for payments made outside a certain time window in a month. Since I have mortgage payments draft directly from my bank account without writing a check, any additional (one-time) payment I make would be separate from my regular mortgage payment -- I would write a check. If that check gets to CitiBank after a certain day of the month (the 5th or 8th, I think) they'll charge me a service charge.
Of course, they've offered me the "opportunity" to make half-payments every two weeks -- resulting in 13 payments a year rather than 12 -- but the fee attached to that structure is ridiculous, too. They tell me I'll save in interest, but don't bother working in the cost of their fee to their calculations.
Every time I went into a Discovery Store I expected to see the coolest stuff and I was always disappointed. They never sold anything that was new or exiting or even that was terribly scientific. The store was neither here, no there. It was a terrible toy store (because it never stocked anything cool enough to buy) and it was a terrible science experiment store because again, it never sold anything new or exciting and they were probably afraid of law suits so they never sold the stuff that may have been slightly dangerous.
I hate to see any retail go, but this one was no surprise. When you try desperately to bring science to the lowest common denominator, you will always fail because the lowest common denominator is usually wholly disinterested in science. There is no Mythbusters on Fox if you get my drift.
If other Wisebread readers can report in on sales in their area, we may get an idea of when to start shopping for the big clearance of 50% off or more.
The Boston store says the discount is 10-30% off now, to get steeper, but they don't know the schedule or closing date.
In my previous car, someone had rapidly and forcefully opened the door of their SUV onto my car, causing a huge dent and paint to chip away. There was even a bunch of white paint left from their SUV. And they just drove away. Why are some people such A-holes? As for the dent, I'm not sure why the methods work for some folks and not for others. I'm sorry you wasted your money on the dry ice. I hate anyone wasting money, which is why I write for WB.