I think both Tyler Durden and Gordon Gekko are extremes and most of us find balance somewhere in the middle.
Interesting that financial advice can be found in the ramblings of the insane, however I am not about to live the ratty, crazy life of someone off their rocker because its cheaper.
I lived for a few years at 10K a year and a year or so on less than that. Less than 10K was not so much fun. 10K a year actually worked pretty nicely.
Later on, I read a book called "Deep Economy" that is about a number of topics and is a little hard to summarize. One of the themes is wealth and money, and that money cannot make us happier although we insist that it can. The author reports on a study that societies get happier with more money until you reach the 10k/person/year line. Any more money after that doesn't make people any happier.
It may be foolish to extrapolate the results from the societal to the individual level, but maybe not. My personal experience is that 10K is a level where a pleasant life exists.
Of course greed is good. Greed is what separates mankind from animals. I'm not talking just about greed for material possessions, but knowledge, success, love, whatever. Greed is just wanting something a lot.
I don't think I need brand name clothes to be happy (and they don't), nor do I "need" a nice car to be happy (but it does). These things are the incentive for me to work harder, earn more money, be more successful. As long as what I'm doing isn't illegal then this would mean that I would become more and more useful to society, I would contribute more and more to the quality of life of OTHER people, by providing services, producing goods, etc.
What separates brand name clothes from medicine, or the internet, or TV, etc. I think we'd all agree that without medicine, mathematics, the internet, engineering, that life would be a lot worse than without. One may argue that brand name clothes don't accomplish the same thing, but all these things exist and will continue to exist because someone somewhere thinks that a Hugo Boss suit is worth $4000 or that Prada handbag $XXXXX (evidently I'm not one of them).
Just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it wrong. The beauty of the free market is that it will weed out what is unnecessary on its own.
So many of us equate happiness with the things that we own, but do we really own them? Or do they own us? (The Tyler Durden quote made me smile, too)
Several years ago, I was diagnosed with a debilitating neuromuscular disorder which can (but not always) lead to a slow, painful death.
Let me tell you: when you think you're going to die, things get different.
I was working a job that I hated, my life was filled with stuff I didn't need, and I realized that I had bought into a philosophy that wasn't really my own.
It was created.
Why did I think that I needed these trousers that look horrible on me? And the huge exercise machine that was the most expensive clothes hanger I ever bought?
I decided to simplify. It was the best decision I ever made. I don't have to work 50 hours a week to pay for junk I never use. I can actually work at a job that I like, even though it pays a little less. And I can be happy.
Now I'm frugal as a matter of habit. I don't need a bunch of stuff to make me so. It's a nice thing to learn this late in life.
according to the Ernst & Young website, Ufirst is a finalist (one of 25) in the Utah region. The criteria are "sustainable financial growth, growth in the number of employees, risk taken by the entrepreneur, and the story behind the entrepreneur's success." Though it may have been considered, I do not see "value to the consumer" listed.
Do you really think that greed is good? I believe that we're programmed from an early age to want things: ever watch Saturday morning cartoons with your kids? Pay special attention to the advertisements.
'Stuff is cool. You need this, it will make you run faster, live better, it's fun, it's good for you, blah, blah, blah...'
It's a constant bombardment, and it's all around you. There's some disagreement about this number, but it's been estimated that the average person in the United States sees 3000 ads a day.
If someone tells you that you are stupid 3000 times in one day, in some small part of your mind you begin to believe it. It becomes part of you. Do you think ads work the same way?
Do you really think that greed is good? I believe that we're programmed from an early age to want things: ever watch Saturday morning cartoons with your kids? Pay special attention to the advertisements.
'Stuff is cool. You need this, it will make you run faster, live better, it's fun, it's good for you, blah, blah, blah...'
It's a constant bombardment, and it's all around you. There's some disagreement about this number, but it's been estimated that the average person in the United States sees 3000 ads a day.
If someone tells you that you are stupid 3000 times in one day, in some small part of your mind you begin to believe it. It becomes part of you. Do you think ads work the same way?
I remember the first time I saw fight club and this scene really got me thinking but in the end I came to the conclusion that although this is quite interesting from a philosophical perspective, it would in no way affect my everyday behavior.
Firstly, regarding paying something with cash or debit upfront as opposed to loading up on debt. This makes perfect sense in that you are not committing yourself to an obligation which you have no guarantee of being able to fulfill. However to actually do this would be insane with most of the financing options we have available to us. As long as you can borrow at a lower rate than you can lend (either through savings or government bonds, or stocks after adjusting for risk) it doesn't make sense to pay for anything up front even if you can afford it. This can get a bit more complicated with floating rates but the basic principal still stands.
Secondly although I do admit that many of the luxuries in life ... hell most of the things I buy are not "necessary" in the most literal sense of the word, it doesn't mean that they do not increase my quality of life.
Lastly for those who are lucky enough to be pulling in the 6 or 7 figure incomes, why not spend a little more for the extras in life, what good is money when you're dead ? And although I in no way condone the following, it is an undeniable part of life. If you are a professional like a doctor/lawyer/banker, its expected that you dress a certain way, drive a certain type of car, live in a certain type of house, and act a certain way. If you don't, you'll find it a lot harder to succeed or get ahead.
While I am sure it would be possible to survive on a modest 10,000 dollar a year income, what type of life would this be ? It is because of wants that humans have been able to accomplish all that we have, want to have more things, want to experience more things, want to know more things. Lest we forget the other famous quote from the movie Wall Street "Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms, greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind." - Gordon Gekko
I once knew a woman who gave away everything she owned every couple of years. I asked her why, and she answered, "Because I stayed in a bad marriage for fear of losing my stuff. I don't want to be trapped by stuff ever again."
I once knew a woman who gave away everything she owned every couple of years. I asked her why, and she answered, "Because I stayed in a bad marriage for fear of losing my stuff. I don't want to be trapped by stuff ever again."
I agree on the BMW (almost do) but I do also feel that always putting frugality ahead of everything else can lead to missing out on good fun which is essential too.
All the research has been done, all the challenges made, all the articles written, and now THE award been given: There's ONLY ONE T R U E mortgage acceleration leader according to: Personal Real Estate Investor Magazine, True Wealth Magazine, Broker Banker Magazine, and now Ernst & Young’s most prestigious award, Entrepreneur of the year. Who am I talking about?
United First Financial and the Money Merge Account.
Get all the real facts about the most advanced mortgage acceleration system in the world. www.payoffyourhomenow.org
When my parents first started out in business (in Asia) in the early 70s this is a very common structure of non-bank financing. My parents were attracted by the high interest offered (if you are one of the last brave soul to receive the principal & interest back). However as people who initiated the structure tend to be desperate for cash, and in days of high inflation, many things didn't pan out, so default was high even in those more innocent days.
Thus I've been brought up seeing that this financing structure as something to avoid unless I am prepared to part with the investment ...
but he did kind of work for himself, although the money from the soap made from lipo fat went towards his terrorist activities. He wasn't a consumer in the real sense of the word, unless you count guns and C4.
Not to undermine the article, which is really good and raises some excellent points about consumerism, but didn't he essentially work for himself by making soap from lipo-ed fat?
This was definitely an interesting post. I don't agree with most of it and I find some of the points disturbing.
I certainly hope that most people don't think in this mamner, but sarcasm aside, their is truth in your material, but one in which I am hesitant to embrace.
Nice post. Fight Club is one of my favorites. I remember when it first came out - i was dealing with a bought of insomnia. Half way through my friend leaned over to me and whispered "youve gotta start sleeping, or this is going to happen to you." haha. But i totally get that "things you own..." I gained the sense that i was doing pretty good when last winter i was woken up at 3am by my condo's buildings fire alarm. Once the confusion wore off i grabbed my purse, threw my external hardrive in it and picked up my cat. I left the place not worrying about one article of clothing or stick of furniture. I got my data and my cat, im good to go. ;)
It's so true that most of us grew up never questioning that the brand of tennis shoes, designer jeans, and even favorite bands, writers, and movies, etc., defines us. That's a tough habit to break. Especially when the retail/entertainment world has hired experts to keep us on that shopping treadmill. The lengths they go to are just frightening, as I wrote about at http://shanelyang.com/2008/05/02/why-we-buy-it-even-if-we-dont-need-it/
Although once farmers move in, it's tough to live hunter-gatherer style, because all the land is owned by the farmers. In places where much of the land isn't really suitable for farming, hunter-gatherers can still eke out an existence around the edges.
You're right, though, that it's wrong to view it as an either/or. There's a whole spectrum from the corporate farmers, to the big family farms, to the small family farms, right on through to the scruffy guy living in a lean-to on Bureau of Land Management land, making do as best he can. They all save a bit when they can, and they all share at least some of the time (the corporate farm too, even if it's just donating some not-first-quality product to the local food bank).
Of course there is lots of variations between farming communities. If you look at a small farm in the U.S. today, say about 100 acres, you likely will find them living much closer to hunter-gatherer mode than anyone in the city, with lots of sharing with neighbors, both of goods and labor. A corporate style farm is something different.
It's not surprising that hunter-gatherer lifestyles feel more natural--it's what we were evolved for: It's the only way people lived from the dawn of man until just a few thousand years ago.
The thing is, though, when farmers and hunter-gatherers want the same land, the farmers win. The same amount of land can support so many more farmers than it can hunter-gatherers, the farmers can always send in more people--enough more to win any battle.
The farmer lifestyle is so successful, in the sense that it can feed so many people and produce such a large surplus, that I expect we're stuck with it. But, because the hunter-gatherer behaviors are so natural, I think we'll go on seeing the sort of tensions I'm talking about.
Enjoyed reading this, thanks. I like how you laid out the differences in incentive between hunter-gatherers and farmers. I must say that something closer to the hunter-gatherer mode seems to bring far greater pleasure to life. But as Hillary used to say..."it takes a village."
Here in Southeast Alaska "sharing the bounty" is still pretty normal with family and friends when it comes to fishing and hunting and berry picking. But I think a much stronger sense of solidarity is needed with my neighbors before I can experience real community happiness. There is so much more people can achieve working together, whether sharing money or labor or goods, it just shows you how strong our ideology of individualism must be if we can ignore those benefits.
I think both Tyler Durden and Gordon Gekko are extremes and most of us find balance somewhere in the middle.
Interesting that financial advice can be found in the ramblings of the insane, however I am not about to live the ratty, crazy life of someone off their rocker because its cheaper.
I lived for a few years at 10K a year and a year or so on less than that. Less than 10K was not so much fun. 10K a year actually worked pretty nicely.
Later on, I read a book called "Deep Economy" that is about a number of topics and is a little hard to summarize. One of the themes is wealth and money, and that money cannot make us happier although we insist that it can. The author reports on a study that societies get happier with more money until you reach the 10k/person/year line. Any more money after that doesn't make people any happier.
It may be foolish to extrapolate the results from the societal to the individual level, but maybe not. My personal experience is that 10K is a level where a pleasant life exists.
Of course greed is good. Greed is what separates mankind from animals. I'm not talking just about greed for material possessions, but knowledge, success, love, whatever. Greed is just wanting something a lot.
I don't think I need brand name clothes to be happy (and they don't), nor do I "need" a nice car to be happy (but it does). These things are the incentive for me to work harder, earn more money, be more successful. As long as what I'm doing isn't illegal then this would mean that I would become more and more useful to society, I would contribute more and more to the quality of life of OTHER people, by providing services, producing goods, etc.
What separates brand name clothes from medicine, or the internet, or TV, etc. I think we'd all agree that without medicine, mathematics, the internet, engineering, that life would be a lot worse than without. One may argue that brand name clothes don't accomplish the same thing, but all these things exist and will continue to exist because someone somewhere thinks that a Hugo Boss suit is worth $4000 or that Prada handbag $XXXXX (evidently I'm not one of them).
Just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it wrong. The beauty of the free market is that it will weed out what is unnecessary on its own.
So many of us equate happiness with the things that we own, but do we really own them? Or do they own us? (The Tyler Durden quote made me smile, too)
Several years ago, I was diagnosed with a debilitating neuromuscular disorder which can (but not always) lead to a slow, painful death.
Let me tell you: when you think you're going to die, things get different.
I was working a job that I hated, my life was filled with stuff I didn't need, and I realized that I had bought into a philosophy that wasn't really my own.
It was created.
Why did I think that I needed these trousers that look horrible on me? And the huge exercise machine that was the most expensive clothes hanger I ever bought?
I decided to simplify. It was the best decision I ever made. I don't have to work 50 hours a week to pay for junk I never use. I can actually work at a job that I like, even though it pays a little less. And I can be happy.
Now I'm frugal as a matter of habit. I don't need a bunch of stuff to make me so. It's a nice thing to learn this late in life.
according to the Ernst & Young website, Ufirst is a finalist (one of 25) in the Utah region. The criteria are "sustainable financial growth, growth in the number of employees, risk taken by the entrepreneur, and the story behind the entrepreneur's success." Though it may have been considered, I do not see "value to the consumer" listed.
Do you really think that greed is good? I believe that we're programmed from an early age to want things: ever watch Saturday morning cartoons with your kids? Pay special attention to the advertisements.
'Stuff is cool. You need this, it will make you run faster, live better, it's fun, it's good for you, blah, blah, blah...'
It's a constant bombardment, and it's all around you. There's some disagreement about this number, but it's been estimated that the average person in the United States sees 3000 ads a day.
If someone tells you that you are stupid 3000 times in one day, in some small part of your mind you begin to believe it. It becomes part of you. Do you think ads work the same way?
I certainly do.
You don't need all this crap to be happy.
You just think that you do.
* reply
Do you really think that greed is good? I believe that we're programmed from an early age to want things: ever watch Saturday morning cartoons with your kids? Pay special attention to the advertisements.
'Stuff is cool. You need this, it will make you run faster, live better, it's fun, it's good for you, blah, blah, blah...'
It's a constant bombardment, and it's all around you. There's some disagreement about this number, but it's been estimated that the average person in the United States sees 3000 ads a day.
If someone tells you that you are stupid 3000 times in one day, in some small part of your mind you begin to believe it. It becomes part of you. Do you think ads work the same way?
I certainly do.
You don't need all this crap to be happy.
You just think that you do.
I remember the first time I saw fight club and this scene really got me thinking but in the end I came to the conclusion that although this is quite interesting from a philosophical perspective, it would in no way affect my everyday behavior.
Firstly, regarding paying something with cash or debit upfront as opposed to loading up on debt. This makes perfect sense in that you are not committing yourself to an obligation which you have no guarantee of being able to fulfill. However to actually do this would be insane with most of the financing options we have available to us. As long as you can borrow at a lower rate than you can lend (either through savings or government bonds, or stocks after adjusting for risk) it doesn't make sense to pay for anything up front even if you can afford it. This can get a bit more complicated with floating rates but the basic principal still stands.
Secondly although I do admit that many of the luxuries in life ... hell most of the things I buy are not "necessary" in the most literal sense of the word, it doesn't mean that they do not increase my quality of life.
Lastly for those who are lucky enough to be pulling in the 6 or 7 figure incomes, why not spend a little more for the extras in life, what good is money when you're dead ? And although I in no way condone the following, it is an undeniable part of life. If you are a professional like a doctor/lawyer/banker, its expected that you dress a certain way, drive a certain type of car, live in a certain type of house, and act a certain way. If you don't, you'll find it a lot harder to succeed or get ahead.
While I am sure it would be possible to survive on a modest 10,000 dollar a year income, what type of life would this be ? It is because of wants that humans have been able to accomplish all that we have, want to have more things, want to experience more things, want to know more things. Lest we forget the other famous quote from the movie Wall Street "Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms, greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind." - Gordon Gekko
I once knew a woman who gave away everything she owned every couple of years. I asked her why, and she answered, "Because I stayed in a bad marriage for fear of losing my stuff. I don't want to be trapped by stuff ever again."
I once knew a woman who gave away everything she owned every couple of years. I asked her why, and she answered, "Because I stayed in a bad marriage for fear of losing my stuff. I don't want to be trapped by stuff ever again."
I agree on the BMW (almost do) but I do also feel that always putting frugality ahead of everything else can lead to missing out on good fun which is essential too.
Stuff. Is. The. Enemy. Dramatic, I know.
http://theartofzenliving.com/2008/04/the-tyranny-of-stuff/ is my take on it, and then this is my take on "The Story of Stuff", which is worth the 20 minutes it takes to watch many times over:
http://theartofzenliving.com/2008/06/the-story-of-stuff/
All the research has been done, all the challenges made, all the articles written, and now THE award been given: There's ONLY ONE T R U E mortgage acceleration leader according to: Personal Real Estate Investor Magazine, True Wealth Magazine, Broker Banker Magazine, and now Ernst & Young’s most prestigious award, Entrepreneur of the year. Who am I talking about?
United First Financial and the Money Merge Account.
Get all the real facts about the most advanced mortgage acceleration system in the world.
www.payoffyourhomenow.org
I am so glad that I read the comments BEFORE signing up! WWJD?
When my parents first started out in business (in Asia) in the early 70s this is a very common structure of non-bank financing. My parents were attracted by the high interest offered (if you are one of the last brave soul to receive the principal & interest back). However as people who initiated the structure tend to be desperate for cash, and in days of high inflation, many things didn't pan out, so default was high even in those more innocent days.
Thus I've been brought up seeing that this financing structure as something to avoid unless I am prepared to part with the investment ...
but he did kind of work for himself, although the money from the soap made from lipo fat went towards his terrorist activities. He wasn't a consumer in the real sense of the word, unless you count guns and C4.
Not to undermine the article, which is really good and raises some excellent points about consumerism, but didn't he essentially work for himself by making soap from lipo-ed fat?
Now I need to watch the movie again...
This was definitely an interesting post. I don't agree with most of it and I find some of the points disturbing.
I certainly hope that most people don't think in this mamner, but sarcasm aside, their is truth in your material, but one in which I am hesitant to embrace.
Let's hope others feel this way.
oh and fyi - the fire on the 7th floor was put out and after 45 minutes of standing out in the street with my neighbors we all went back to bed.
Nice post. Fight Club is one of my favorites. I remember when it first came out - i was dealing with a bought of insomnia. Half way through my friend leaned over to me and whispered "youve gotta start sleeping, or this is going to happen to you." haha. But i totally get that "things you own..." I gained the sense that i was doing pretty good when last winter i was woken up at 3am by my condo's buildings fire alarm. Once the confusion wore off i grabbed my purse, threw my external hardrive in it and picked up my cat. I left the place not worrying about one article of clothing or stick of furniture. I got my data and my cat, im good to go. ;)
It's so true that most of us grew up never questioning that the brand of tennis shoes, designer jeans, and even favorite bands, writers, and movies, etc., defines us. That's a tough habit to break. Especially when the retail/entertainment world has hired experts to keep us on that shopping treadmill. The lengths they go to are just frightening, as I wrote about at http://shanelyang.com/2008/05/02/why-we-buy-it-even-if-we-dont-need-it/
Love this post and love Fight Club! I also read all the other novels by Chuck except his latest book Snuff. I'll probably read that one, too, although the only review I've read of it so far is pretty harsh: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/books/review/Ellmann-t.html?_r=1&oref=...
Although once farmers move in, it's tough to live hunter-gatherer style, because all the land is owned by the farmers. In places where much of the land isn't really suitable for farming, hunter-gatherers can still eke out an existence around the edges.
You're right, though, that it's wrong to view it as an either/or. There's a whole spectrum from the corporate farmers, to the big family farms, to the small family farms, right on through to the scruffy guy living in a lean-to on Bureau of Land Management land, making do as best he can. They all save a bit when they can, and they all share at least some of the time (the corporate farm too, even if it's just donating some not-first-quality product to the local food bank).
Of course there is lots of variations between farming communities. If you look at a small farm in the U.S. today, say about 100 acres, you likely will find them living much closer to hunter-gatherer mode than anyone in the city, with lots of sharing with neighbors, both of goods and labor. A corporate style farm is something different.
It's not surprising that hunter-gatherer lifestyles feel more natural--it's what we were evolved for: It's the only way people lived from the dawn of man until just a few thousand years ago.
The thing is, though, when farmers and hunter-gatherers want the same land, the farmers win. The same amount of land can support so many more farmers than it can hunter-gatherers, the farmers can always send in more people--enough more to win any battle.
The farmer lifestyle is so successful, in the sense that it can feed so many people and produce such a large surplus, that I expect we're stuck with it. But, because the hunter-gatherer behaviors are so natural, I think we'll go on seeing the sort of tensions I'm talking about.
Thanks for your comment!
Enjoyed reading this, thanks. I like how you laid out the differences in incentive between hunter-gatherers and farmers. I must say that something closer to the hunter-gatherer mode seems to bring far greater pleasure to life. But as Hillary used to say..."it takes a village."
Here in Southeast Alaska "sharing the bounty" is still pretty normal with family and friends when it comes to fishing and hunting and berry picking. But I think a much stronger sense of solidarity is needed with my neighbors before I can experience real community happiness. There is so much more people can achieve working together, whether sharing money or labor or goods, it just shows you how strong our ideology of individualism must be if we can ignore those benefits.