My last job was lower pay, not as fun, but had more incentives (bonuses, stock options, etc) that no one ever actually got, ever. I left that place.
My current company pays better, is more fun to work at and is an environment more conducive to its employee's growth. It also have fewer incentives that we do actually achieve.
Needless to say, more and better quality work gets done at my new job.
I had friends that worked at Wal-Mart, and I personally worked at Target while I was in college. I was much, much happier than my friends at Wal-Mart, even though we were paid the same. This isn't about classism. Different companies have different cultures, and Target does treat its employees differently, based on my own experience and my friends'. (Then again, I can only speak to the one store I worked at - it may not be true across the whole corporation.)
The labor market is fluid, if not completely free. Retail gets paid crap because there are plenty of high school and college students willing to do the work for minimum wage. I thought I was adequately compensated at $9 per hour - or maybe it was only $8.
And the marketplace is competitive. Local retailers are being driven out of business by big lot stores because they can't match the low prices. Is this fair? Is this good? Those are subjective, value-based questions. Economically, though, it is just the result of efficiency.
I don't shop at Wal-Mart or Target because there aren't any in Manhattan. But when I was in high school and college, I had my fair share of Wal-Mart and Target experiences. Target clothes, shoes, linens, and other goods always outlasted Wal-Mart. I guess Target is using better sweatshops? There's nothing classist about shopping at a place with better lighting, better products, and more pleasant employees. That's like saying there's something classist about wearing purple because you find it more pleasant than green.
I end up at WalMart about once a year. (Last time because I was on the way to the shooting range, and it was the only place on the way that would have targets.) I end up a Target so rarely, I don't even know where there closest one is. (The one I shopped at occasionally closed several years back. I think there's another in the area, but I've never been to it.)
It's not a matter of principle, though. Mostly it's just a matter of not buying much general merchandise stuff.
We buy groceries at Schnucks and IGA, both of which are within walking distance. We're also lucky in that we have an actual old-fashioned hardware store within walking distance as well. The last time we needed to get general merchandise of the sort that you can't get at a grocery store, we went to Farm and Fleet (part of a regional chain of "big box" type stores), which was having a great sale on compact fluorescents.
I suppose part of it is just that we already have a lot of the stuff that you might buy at a store like that--we've got a TV, a camera, dishes, pots and pans, clothes, etc. We don't have kids, so we're not having to constantly replace things that are getting outgrown. Our clothes do wear out, but that happens pretty slowly. I don't think I've bought any new clothes since last summer, and only one pair of new shoes. (I'll have to buy some new clothes once the weather turns warm, although maybe I can hold out until the new season's things go on sale.)
I take a certain amount of satisfaction from not patronizing those stores, but it's really cheating for me to do so--I'll break down and shop there when it's most convenient. Mostly, though, I don't.
I really have a strong problem with Wal-Mart and actively boycott their stores. (Watch "The High Cost of the Low Price" it's a great documentary about Wal-Mart) But I am a Target junkie all the way. I was just there today in fact.
I have a friend that was offered a job there for $14 per hour which surprised me. I thought that was a pretty decent wage and you can most certainly live off of that here.
I will research it further although it will be hard to kick my Target habit, if it came to that.
Speaking of anti-labor, John Mackey of Whole Foods is HUGELY anti-labor. The labor movement is very weak here in Texas, unfortunately.
how to get all of the basic ingredients and equipment needed to make moonshine?
i'm also a bit fuzzy on what to do with them after i get them too..
i'm not very good with recipes, instructions, etc. and it would help a lot if you could sort of explain it to me a little more.
(:
email me, please & thank you.
I have to say that the "Target is better than Wal*Mart" stuff smacks of snooty classism.
They have similar pay scales, similar benefits, similar policies, and sell similar stuff. But Target "feels" better, so it is better? I don't think so.
If you want to get semi-serious about it, Wal*Mart is pushing green packaging and light bulbs. And their crappy lighting comes at least in part from the fact that they use overheard solar, which Target does not.
If you want to get really serious about it, though, don't shop at either place. It can be done. Just because Isaac Mizrahi designs stuff for Target and they use Beatles songs for their commercials doesn't make it better.
"I just don't think retail work commands $12/hr, even if that is what a living wage is."
Have you ever worked retail? I'm curious because disregarding babysitting every job I've ever had has been retail and I can tell you that it's never quite felt worth the $5.15 to $8.65 per hour range that I've been paid to do it. I know someone that gets paid almost $19 an hour to sit at a computer and type. Granted he has to go to a couple meetings and sometimes he has to do a presentation but his main job is filling out patient information (he doesn't work at a hospital, but for a company that manufactures specific post-surgery products) and for it he also gets a health insurance package that rivals that of my mother's who works for a state run hospital.
While I get paid less than half of what he does, with no health insurance. I don't get to sit all day, I get to sit on my breaks and that's it. Without delving to far in to my actual place of work, I am required to have a very specific knowledge of my job and while "anyone" might be able to learn or do my job not anyone could do it well.
I don't want to start into a tirade here because that's not what this was about. It just really gets on my nerves when people declare that retail workers don't do work that's worth more than they're getting, when I see every day them doing a lot more work than they're given respect for.
Always love these discussions. November 5, 2005 my husband and I swore off both WalMart and Target (relating to many issues described above and also my anger at Target allowing pharmacists to refuse to fill emergency contraception and birth control prescriptions). It's been an adjustment but I've also ended up saving a ton of money because I've eliminated those impulse Target buys (and I was in the place more than once a week). We find we spend more on some things but since we shop a lot less we come out ahead.
On the other hand, my mother lives in a small town: she doesn't have much choice past WalMart, so she doesn't like it but she shops there.
But the wording isn't necessarily looking for a quick easy exit. Debt is something that sometimes you can almost become - for me it seems like an intrinsic part of my identity. "Getting out of debt" for me is NOT about not repaying my debt (I have been very diligently and continue to) it is about getting out of the lifestyle I was in where debt was a part of being alive.
I talk about getting out of debt as my goal all the time. But it isn't about the quick fix. it is, however, about getting out. Through repayment.
What is wrong with paying people for the work they do at market-set wages? In this great capitalist nation, you are paid based on your work/skill/knowledge compared to the next person, not based on need (communism).
I really don't understand why people would boycott Wal-Mart simply because you don't want to contribute to its "becoming more powerful than any world government."
You should be 10x more concerned about any world gov't before a company like Wal-Mart. Just remember, governments have the police, the military, and the power of legislation. Businesses only have the power you give them through your dollar.
Now if you don't want to purchase from Wal-Mart or any other business for that matter, because of inferior goods, poor customer service, etc., that is fine. I just think that one might want to reevaluate his or her reasons for shopping one place or another simply because of its size.
They sell them on eBay, about $20 inc. shipping. (That link will stop working when the auction ends). I'll also put a link in the main article to the exact one Milton uses, available from trusted site Amazon. That's for those who would rather pay and guarantee a red one.
Great article. I've always said that money is a lousy motivator; once that first check is in the bank, it’s just expected. There is nothing more powerful than aligning company goals with people’s raw desire and ambition – of course there nothing more difficult either...
I, too, am hoping for a red one. I asked for one for graduation (computer science major!) but my mom didn't know Office Space and bought me a very nice, very functional - and very burgundy - stapler.
In the extras, I wanted a fabric stain remover (like Tide-to-Go) and a USB flash drive. You can get the small ones pretty cheap and they're super handy for quick'n'dirty file transfers.
Target has a nicer shopping experience and even if they were the same in their offerings, Target would still be better. After all, the 'low-brow' people and their "screaming unattended children" shop at Wal-Mart.
Wal-Mart is also more likely to be available in small-town USA than Target...And as we all know, from universities to the Electoral College, some parts of the USA are just more important than others. Why would people in the more important parts really want to share the same Orwellian shopping experience as those in the lesser parts? Well fortunately W-M has been a bad corporate citizen so we can just blame that for avoiding them. The fact that our own preferred retailer has done the same dirty tricks is of little importance, the unattended kids don't scream and they stock nicer linens.
So both have been caught doing largely the same things but Target is ok because it's a smaller mega-retailer?
Do I understand that right?
Suppose there was a successful boycott of Wal-Mart such that it closed down...do people honestly believe Target would sit back and not get larger?
What's especially interesting is how candid some other commentators have been, essentially propping up Target as a matter of class distinction rather than what's really at issue here: Social justice.
"Neither store pays a living wage."
I don't mean to say they should pay their people crap (and minimum wage should surely be tied to inflation), but living wage (i think) is around $12/hr. I just don't think retail work commands $12/hr, even if that is what a living wage is.
One argument is that while target does this too, Walmart started it, forcing others to follow to remain competitive. Not even sure if that is true, but it is what a walmart hating friend told me!
for those who don't want to read through the whole thing, the nuts and bolts of it is Walmart goal to reduce it's packaging, and the ripple effect (mostly for the better) that it will create in the economy.
My only personal exposure has been on the local store level. Walmart employees are usually disgruntled and overworked, which results in below-par service and me feeling like I have inconvenienced them by ever shopping there. Target employees rumble on message boards from time to time, but when I shop my local Target store in person, I'm treated like an A-class citizen. Since I shop places that treat me right, Target will win out every time. I don't get hassled over coupons, my kids are treated as the blessing that they are, and I never, ever have to take them to a filthy potty... ever.
I feel that HONESTY is one of the KEY VALUES when dealing with such financial obligations. If you are not honest with yourself and your own personal financial situation, then you won't cheat yourself out of taking the necessary actions to reduce debt and in the long term eliminate it.
Until I got the link for RetailMeNot via Worldstart.com's daily computer tips (free, of course), I googled "coupon code" and the store in question every. single. time I shopped online. I would strongly suggest that users also share coupon codes we're mailed and emailed, and use the feedback buttons, to give something back to this wonderful site. The only thing that's better is my cashback links (email me, Oh Wise Wisebreads, if you'd like them - since I earn from referrals, I don't want to post the links here and risk disobeying the Terms of Use).
Thanks, too, for the BugMeNot URL, which - seriously - I hadn't looked at, according to my stumbles, for a full eleven months.
(I'm WAY behind here, but checked my Google Reader because I'm sending some of my favorite blogs to my massage therapist, who will use your hints even more than I will!)
I was unaware of some of these points, but overall I'm happy with Target as my main store. And I too have the same feeling when I shop there. It's a pleasure. When I did shop at WM I felt ill. The lighting is awful, the stores are unclean and disorganized, it just feels horrible and oppressive. It's an Orwellian nightmare.
I know a couple of people who work at the local Target and a few people who have worked at the Wal Mart stores in town.
Locally Target pays about $1 more an hour though both still underpay. Target has usable health insurance if your in a position to obtain it.
As far as Target squeezing out manufacturers the way Walmart did I don't know. I have not heard of such stories, who knows though.
I am a realist though, much of what you find at Target was also made in China. I try to avoid buying things because it is not a wise concept to ship everything across the globe and lack of trust in the current manufacturing standards in China.
Target has better selection and a far nicer experience to endure. Our two Walmart stores are filthy and usually full of screaming unattended children. The lighting in Walmart gives me a headache too.
If you know a way to get Costco to come to our town let me know. I have been emailing them for about 4 years about it.
My last job was lower pay, not as fun, but had more incentives (bonuses, stock options, etc) that no one ever actually got, ever. I left that place.
My current company pays better, is more fun to work at and is an environment more conducive to its employee's growth. It also have fewer incentives that we do actually achieve.
Needless to say, more and better quality work gets done at my new job.
I had friends that worked at Wal-Mart, and I personally worked at Target while I was in college. I was much, much happier than my friends at Wal-Mart, even though we were paid the same. This isn't about classism. Different companies have different cultures, and Target does treat its employees differently, based on my own experience and my friends'. (Then again, I can only speak to the one store I worked at - it may not be true across the whole corporation.)
The labor market is fluid, if not completely free. Retail gets paid crap because there are plenty of high school and college students willing to do the work for minimum wage. I thought I was adequately compensated at $9 per hour - or maybe it was only $8.
And the marketplace is competitive. Local retailers are being driven out of business by big lot stores because they can't match the low prices. Is this fair? Is this good? Those are subjective, value-based questions. Economically, though, it is just the result of efficiency.
I don't shop at Wal-Mart or Target because there aren't any in Manhattan. But when I was in high school and college, I had my fair share of Wal-Mart and Target experiences. Target clothes, shoes, linens, and other goods always outlasted Wal-Mart. I guess Target is using better sweatshops? There's nothing classist about shopping at a place with better lighting, better products, and more pleasant employees. That's like saying there's something classist about wearing purple because you find it more pleasant than green.
I end up at WalMart about once a year. (Last time because I was on the way to the shooting range, and it was the only place on the way that would have targets.) I end up a Target so rarely, I don't even know where there closest one is. (The one I shopped at occasionally closed several years back. I think there's another in the area, but I've never been to it.)
It's not a matter of principle, though. Mostly it's just a matter of not buying much general merchandise stuff.
We buy groceries at Schnucks and IGA, both of which are within walking distance. We're also lucky in that we have an actual old-fashioned hardware store within walking distance as well. The last time we needed to get general merchandise of the sort that you can't get at a grocery store, we went to Farm and Fleet (part of a regional chain of "big box" type stores), which was having a great sale on compact fluorescents.
I suppose part of it is just that we already have a lot of the stuff that you might buy at a store like that--we've got a TV, a camera, dishes, pots and pans, clothes, etc. We don't have kids, so we're not having to constantly replace things that are getting outgrown. Our clothes do wear out, but that happens pretty slowly. I don't think I've bought any new clothes since last summer, and only one pair of new shoes. (I'll have to buy some new clothes once the weather turns warm, although maybe I can hold out until the new season's things go on sale.)
I take a certain amount of satisfaction from not patronizing those stores, but it's really cheating for me to do so--I'll break down and shop there when it's most convenient. Mostly, though, I don't.
I really have a strong problem with Wal-Mart and actively boycott their stores. (Watch "The High Cost of the Low Price" it's a great documentary about Wal-Mart) But I am a Target junkie all the way. I was just there today in fact.
I have a friend that was offered a job there for $14 per hour which surprised me. I thought that was a pretty decent wage and you can most certainly live off of that here.
I will research it further although it will be hard to kick my Target habit, if it came to that.
Speaking of anti-labor, John Mackey of Whole Foods is HUGELY anti-labor. The labor movement is very weak here in Texas, unfortunately.
OH and could you also explain what fermenting/distilling is and how it works?
how to get all of the basic ingredients and equipment needed to make moonshine?
i'm also a bit fuzzy on what to do with them after i get them too..
i'm not very good with recipes, instructions, etc. and it would help a lot if you could sort of explain it to me a little more.
(:
email me, please & thank you.
I have to say that the "Target is better than Wal*Mart" stuff smacks of snooty classism.
They have similar pay scales, similar benefits, similar policies, and sell similar stuff. But Target "feels" better, so it is better? I don't think so.
See: http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=13508 for more information about their pay scales, benefits, and so on.
If you want to get semi-serious about it, Wal*Mart is pushing green packaging and light bulbs. And their crappy lighting comes at least in part from the fact that they use overheard solar, which Target does not.
If you want to get really serious about it, though, don't shop at either place. It can be done. Just because Isaac Mizrahi designs stuff for Target and they use Beatles songs for their commercials doesn't make it better.
"I just don't think retail work commands $12/hr, even if that is what a living wage is."
Have you ever worked retail? I'm curious because disregarding babysitting every job I've ever had has been retail and I can tell you that it's never quite felt worth the $5.15 to $8.65 per hour range that I've been paid to do it. I know someone that gets paid almost $19 an hour to sit at a computer and type. Granted he has to go to a couple meetings and sometimes he has to do a presentation but his main job is filling out patient information (he doesn't work at a hospital, but for a company that manufactures specific post-surgery products) and for it he also gets a health insurance package that rivals that of my mother's who works for a state run hospital.
While I get paid less than half of what he does, with no health insurance. I don't get to sit all day, I get to sit on my breaks and that's it. Without delving to far in to my actual place of work, I am required to have a very specific knowledge of my job and while "anyone" might be able to learn or do my job not anyone could do it well.
I don't want to start into a tirade here because that's not what this was about. It just really gets on my nerves when people declare that retail workers don't do work that's worth more than they're getting, when I see every day them doing a lot more work than they're given respect for.
Always love these discussions. November 5, 2005 my husband and I swore off both WalMart and Target (relating to many issues described above and also my anger at Target allowing pharmacists to refuse to fill emergency contraception and birth control prescriptions). It's been an adjustment but I've also ended up saving a ton of money because I've eliminated those impulse Target buys (and I was in the place more than once a week). We find we spend more on some things but since we shop a lot less we come out ahead.
On the other hand, my mother lives in a small town: she doesn't have much choice past WalMart, so she doesn't like it but she shops there.
today I heard some news about Walmart suing a disabled woman for her medical coverage back. It's pretty messed up. http://greensboro.injuryboard.com/car-accidents/walmart-sues-disabled-wo...
It's impossible to underpay anyone who is voluntarily employed.
But the wording isn't necessarily looking for a quick easy exit. Debt is something that sometimes you can almost become - for me it seems like an intrinsic part of my identity. "Getting out of debt" for me is NOT about not repaying my debt (I have been very diligently and continue to) it is about getting out of the lifestyle I was in where debt was a part of being alive.
I talk about getting out of debt as my goal all the time. But it isn't about the quick fix. it is, however, about getting out. Through repayment.
What is wrong with paying people for the work they do at market-set wages? In this great capitalist nation, you are paid based on your work/skill/knowledge compared to the next person, not based on need (communism).
I really don't understand why people would boycott Wal-Mart simply because you don't want to contribute to its "becoming more powerful than any world government."
You should be 10x more concerned about any world gov't before a company like Wal-Mart. Just remember, governments have the police, the military, and the power of legislation. Businesses only have the power you give them through your dollar.
Now if you don't want to purchase from Wal-Mart or any other business for that matter, because of inferior goods, poor customer service, etc., that is fine. I just think that one might want to reevaluate his or her reasons for shopping one place or another simply because of its size.
-Rob
They sell them on eBay, about $20 inc. shipping.
(That link will stop working when the auction ends). I'll also put a link in the main article to the exact one Milton uses, available from trusted site Amazon. That's for those who would rather pay and guarantee a red one.
Great article. I've always said that money is a lousy motivator; once that first check is in the bank, it’s just expected. There is nothing more powerful than aligning company goals with people’s raw desire and ambition – of course there nothing more difficult either...
I, too, am hoping for a red one. I asked for one for graduation (computer science major!) but my mom didn't know Office Space and bought me a very nice, very functional - and very burgundy - stapler.
In the extras, I wanted a fabric stain remover (like Tide-to-Go) and a USB flash drive. You can get the small ones pretty cheap and they're super handy for quick'n'dirty file transfers.
Target has a nicer shopping experience and even if they were the same in their offerings, Target would still be better. After all, the 'low-brow' people and their "screaming unattended children" shop at Wal-Mart.
Wal-Mart is also more likely to be available in small-town USA than Target...And as we all know, from universities to the Electoral College, some parts of the USA are just more important than others. Why would people in the more important parts really want to share the same Orwellian shopping experience as those in the lesser parts? Well fortunately W-M has been a bad corporate citizen so we can just blame that for avoiding them. The fact that our own preferred retailer has done the same dirty tricks is of little importance, the unattended kids don't scream and they stock nicer linens.
So both have been caught doing largely the same things but Target is ok because it's a smaller mega-retailer?
Do I understand that right?
Suppose there was a successful boycott of Wal-Mart such that it closed down...do people honestly believe Target would sit back and not get larger?
What's especially interesting is how candid some other commentators have been, essentially propping up Target as a matter of class distinction rather than what's really at issue here: Social justice.
"Neither store pays a living wage."
Really? I was able to live off of soley a Target wage and pay for college. I also know a friend who did the same.
Maybe i needed to buy more things to make the wage unlivable.
"Neither store pays a living wage."
I don't mean to say they should pay their people crap (and minimum wage should surely be tied to inflation), but living wage (i think) is around $12/hr. I just don't think retail work commands $12/hr, even if that is what a living wage is.
One argument is that while target does this too, Walmart started it, forcing others to follow to remain competitive. Not even sure if that is true, but it is what a walmart hating friend told me!
but I came across this article the other day, and just feel like it's a little relevant to the topic here.
One to Grow On(new window)
for those who don't want to read through the whole thing, the nuts and bolts of it is Walmart goal to reduce it's packaging, and the ripple effect (mostly for the better) that it will create in the economy.
My only personal exposure has been on the local store level. Walmart employees are usually disgruntled and overworked, which results in below-par service and me feeling like I have inconvenienced them by ever shopping there. Target employees rumble on message boards from time to time, but when I shop my local Target store in person, I'm treated like an A-class citizen. Since I shop places that treat me right, Target will win out every time. I don't get hassled over coupons, my kids are treated as the blessing that they are, and I never, ever have to take them to a filthy potty... ever.
I feel that HONESTY is one of the KEY VALUES when dealing with such financial obligations. If you are not honest with yourself and your own personal financial situation, then you won't cheat yourself out of taking the necessary actions to reduce debt and in the long term eliminate it.
Until I got the link for RetailMeNot via Worldstart.com's daily computer tips (free, of course), I googled "coupon code" and the store in question every. single. time I shopped online. I would strongly suggest that users also share coupon codes we're mailed and emailed, and use the feedback buttons, to give something back to this wonderful site. The only thing that's better is my cashback links (email me, Oh Wise Wisebreads, if you'd like them - since I earn from referrals, I don't want to post the links here and risk disobeying the Terms of Use).
Thanks, too, for the BugMeNot URL, which - seriously - I hadn't looked at, according to my stumbles, for a full eleven months.
(I'm WAY behind here, but checked my Google Reader because I'm sending some of my favorite blogs to my massage therapist, who will use your hints even more than I will!)
I was unaware of some of these points, but overall I'm happy with Target as my main store. And I too have the same feeling when I shop there. It's a pleasure. When I did shop at WM I felt ill. The lighting is awful, the stores are unclean and disorganized, it just feels horrible and oppressive. It's an Orwellian nightmare.
I know a couple of people who work at the local Target and a few people who have worked at the Wal Mart stores in town.
Locally Target pays about $1 more an hour though both still underpay. Target has usable health insurance if your in a position to obtain it.
As far as Target squeezing out manufacturers the way Walmart did I don't know. I have not heard of such stories, who knows though.
I am a realist though, much of what you find at Target was also made in China. I try to avoid buying things because it is not a wise concept to ship everything across the globe and lack of trust in the current manufacturing standards in China.
Target has better selection and a far nicer experience to endure. Our two Walmart stores are filthy and usually full of screaming unattended children. The lighting in Walmart gives me a headache too.
If you know a way to get Costco to come to our town let me know. I have been emailing them for about 4 years about it.